Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Micah Sweet]

So, given the subject of the thread, let's talk about how darkvision impacts those elements of dungeon exploration.

I'm going to use a vague "night vision goggles" definition of "darkvision" here, just because we are talking about more than just 5E.

If the players are relying on darkvision, I think it is not just reasonable but required for the Gm to give them less information than if they rely on bright light sources. Darkvision is going to obscure details and even distort what the characters see. They may also have to rely more on their other sense, particularly touch, to get a full picture of their environment -- and touching every random thing in a dungeon is a baaaad idea.

If the fun of the dungeon crawl is discovery, then players should be inclined NOT to rely on it because they are limiting their own fun.

True, but in practical play this joy of discovery is balanced against a Player's desire to "win" (and more importantly not wanting their PC to lose). And that desire pushes them to use whatever the rules allow to get the most PC-favorable result from any situation. That instinct to optimize the fun out of play can of course be fought, but in my experience it is a fight, and more prevalent, easy to use tools can make that fight harder.

 

[Thomas Shey]

So, given the subject of the thread, let's talk about how darkvision impacts those elements of dungeon exploration.

I'm going to use a vague "night vision goggles" definition of "darkvision" here, just because we are talking about more than just 5E.

Though lowlight vision is actually a lot less useful than a lot of definitions of dark vision, depending on the latter.

If the players are relying on darkvision, I think it is not just reasonable but required for the Gm to give them less information than if they rely on bright light sources.

To a point. I definitely agree when it comes to passing information--you're not going to be able to tell colors with most of it for example. But of course when you want to examine something close, you can always pull out a light then. You don't even need to have torches for that; a few candles will do.

Darkvision is going to obscure details and even distort what the characters see. They may also have to rely more on their other sense, particularly touch, to get a full picture of their environment -- and touching every random thing in a dungeon is a baaaad idea.

Eh. You're going to still get decent contrast except on things like inscriptions and the like. And see my comment above. Just because you're using darkvision for your primary travelling sense doesn't compel you to stick to it for detailed examination of items and surfaces of interest.

If the fun of the dungeon crawl is discovery, then players should be inclined NOT to rely on it because they are limiting their own fun.

Only if they have to do it exclusively.

 

[Reynard]

Though lowlight vision is actually a lot less useful than a lot of definitions of dark vision, depending on the latter.



To a point. I definitely agree when it comes to passing information--you're not going to be able to tell colors with most of it for example. But of course when you want to examine something close, you can always pull out a light then. You don't even need to have torches for that; a few candles will do.



Eh. You're going to still get decent contrast except on things like inscriptions and the like. And see my comment above. Just because you're using darkvision for your primary travelling sense doesn't compel you to stick to it for detailed examination of items and surfaces of interest.



Only if they have to do it exclusively.

Sure. There are costs to that too, though. Unless their are lighters in the setting/game, or easy magical light, light on and off is harder than always on. A hooded lantern, for example, doesn't really solve the issues with carrying a light around because if it was totally opaque, it would also smother the flame.

But yes, explorers can certainly use light as tool when convenient.

 

[nevin]

A human and a grue sit at an inn's common room (just go with it), talking about their quests.

Mystery is a big part of fantasy. What we can't see is mysterious. We can't see in the dark. Darkvision allows us to see in the dark.

Ergo, darkvision ruins fantasy. Dungeon-crawling, in particular.

Agree or disagree? Does everyone in your party have darkvision? Does your GM remember to enforce darkness rules (if any)?

I agree to a point. Dark vision doesn't let you see past the limit of it's vision. Unlike your normal vision. imagine the world if everything at 30ft, 60ft or 90ft was just hidden behind a black inky wall. If you couldn't see more than two or three houses down your street, or even driving down the highway with a clear vision of 90ft and then NOTHING. I think most DM's totally miss out on the catastrophes that can be caused by fast movement or the fact that monsters with longer vision than the party can just stay out of thier vision range and wait for the right time.. I do wish more DM's enforced the details of Darkness rules and I've said many times I miss the old Infravision. (undead and cold blooded creatures sucked so bad). But Dark vision as written should be scary. Not even a tiny sliver of information on what is behind that black wall.

 

[nevin]

True, but in practical play this joy of discovery is balanced against a Player's desire to "win" (and more importantly not wanting their PC to lose). And that desire pushes them to use whatever the rules allow to get the most PC-favorable result from any situation. That instinct to optimize the fun out of play can of course be fought, but in my experience it is a fight, and more prevalent, easy to use tools can make that fight harder.

on both sides DM and player.....

 

[GobHag]

I chose no, but that was a mistake, it definitely did have detrimental mistake on the type of dungeon crawl that's expected here.

However, I think it's fine that that kind of dungeoncrawling is made less good. If most players and tables don't do this kind of thing anyways or makes sure that they have ways not just to ease it but bypass it.... why care? Tradition? Well, it's traditional to abandon those elements according to many here. I'm not complaining that D&D has bad surgery gameplay or actually doing magical research.

 

[payn]

I completely forget about hiring torchbearers! That was always a fun time having two or three dudes accompanying the party, no doubt scared witless by everything around them and yet still managing to hold those dang torches. What troopers. All for 50 gold a day, too

"Aziz LIGHT!"

 

[zakael19]

Much like Shadowdark, His Majesty the Worm ties lighting to multiple aspects of your dungeon experience. Since you're in a mythic underworld, you're going through weird and dark landscapes that have varied lighting experiences and mostly dark. If you totally run out of light, you get to roll on a table and see what happens to you (stagger home traumatized forever, lose all your equipment, get eaten by a grue, etc). This makes the resource of lighting really matter, and finding a dungeon merchant to sell you some more torches at the last moment before you delved too deep for what you had exciting - now lets see what they demand of you...

It thus lines out Darkvision as incompatible with the tone and resource balance it wants.

 

[MGibster]

If the players are relying on darkvision, I think it is not just reasonable but required for the Gm to give them less information than if they rely on bright light sources. Darkvision is going to obscure details and even distort what the characters see. They may also have to rely more on their other sense, particularly touch, to get a full picture of their environment -- and touching every random thing in a dungeon is a baaaad idea.

The 2024 Player's Handbook defines darkvision fairly clearly. In completely darkness, creatures with darkvision see as if they were in dim lighting. The only detail they're lacking is they see color in shades of gray. They might potentially miss out on some things, maybe they can't tell the difference between a gold cup and a pewter cup.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The 2024 Player's Handbook defines darkvision fairly clearly. In completely darkness, creatures with darkvision see as if they were in dim lighting. The only detail they're lacking is they see color in shades of gray. They might potentially miss out on some things, maybe they can't tell the difference between a gold cup and a pewter cup.

So they've made it even stronger.

Great.