Darkvision through a telescope

[Slaved]

In your game, your characters can read 1 inch letters on the side of a barn from a range of 10,000 yards, assuming no obstruction?

Vision rules are in the spot skill I believe. All vision is limited. Per 10 feet of distance you have a –1 to a spot check. Which means at some distance you are unable to see things even without an obstruction, with normal vision. This item however would help, by providing x2 magnification, thus extending your sight by x2.

Much like normal vision should be extended by x2 using this item, darkvision should as well since it functions like normal vision.

I do not believe that there are any rules in the game that actually state how hard it is to see things that are not hiding based on range. If you have line of sight on something and it is not trying to hide then you see it, no spot check involved.

Reading at a distance, or noticing small things, does not appear to actually fall directly under any particular skill. The game designers seem to feel that it should be obvious. I suppose that means they never go to any rules forums.

Darkvision is very different though. I like to imagine it as walking around a wall of impenetrable darkness at a certain distance. Everything within that distance is like black and white television, but that moving wall is always there whenever there is sufficient space to see it. Darkvision simply has a limit to how far it extends, beyond which nothing is visible via its power. You can make the objects that are there look 10 times as large if you like, but you still can not see them.

 

[frankthedm]

Much like normal vision should be extended by x2 using this item, darkvision should as well since it functions like normal vision.

Darkvision only goes out to 60'. No matter how large something is, past 60', it is outside the range of darkvision.

 

[Jhulae]

Darkvision only goes out to 60'.

Technically, Darkvision goes out to a specific distance per race/creature that has it, with 60' being the most common, but not the only distance.

No matter how large something is, past 60', it is outside the range of darkvision.

And I agree with this part (except for the 60' as noted above). Darkvision does have a specified distance and anything beyond that distance is beyond the creature's ability to see with Darkvison. A telescope might provide a circumstance bonus to spot (since it magnifies things) but wouldn't allow seeing past the Darkvision limit.

 

[Mistwell]

There is a difference between things getting harder to see as they get farther away and a sense mode with an explicit hard edged range. A telescope enlarges things within your visual range, thus making small items easier to spot or details easier to distinguish.

My telescope let's me see the rings of Saturn. The rings of Saturn are not within my normal visual range, despite there being no obstruction between me and the planet. Telescopes can extend your normal visual range.

Which, imo, it would do for darkvision as well, for anything within the darkvision's range. But an item in total darkness 65 feet away is not at a distance penalty to a dwarf's spot check, it isn't harder to see than an item twice as big would be, it isn't easier to see than an item half as big would be - it is outside the range of the dwarf's visual senses. A telescope makes things look twice as big, which, in normal vision is the same as seeing twice as far in terms of how easily you can see something. But easily doesn't play into the range of dark vision. It's a range, not a range increment.

I just see it differently (pun sorta intended). I think the "darkvision works like normal vision" rule applies here, and thus if normal vision would be effectively extended by x2, darkvision would be as well.

 

[Mistwell]

I do not believe that there are any rules in the game that actually state how hard it is to see things that are not hiding based on range. If you have line of sight on something and it is not trying to hide then you see it, no spot check involved.

I disagree. Spot skill is often used with an opposed hide check, but not always (and that is explicit in the rule). It's used for all sorts of things, from "Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see" to "Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins". As far as game rules go, if you ask your DM "Can I see any details on the side of that barn that is a mile away" your DM is likely going to ask you to make a spot check versus a fixed DC adjusted for distance. It's the skill used to make such determinations.

Reading at a distance, or noticing small things, does not appear to actually fall directly under any particular skill. The game designers seem to feel that it should be obvious. I suppose that means they never go to any rules forums.

It's obvious though isn't it? I mean, elves get a bonus to spot checks specifically because they have good eyesight. I mean, the skill is called SPOT

Darkvision is very different though.

Other than being black and white, it's otherwise like normal sight. It's specifically called out in the rules as not being very different than normal sight.

I like to imagine it as walking around a wall of impenetrable darkness at a certain distance. Everything within that distance is like black and white television, but that moving wall is always there whenever there is sufficient space to see it. Darkvision simply has a limit to how far it extends, beyond which nothing is visible via its power. You can make the objects that are there look 10 times as large if you like, but you still can not see them.

And I look at it as normal vision, with a shorter normal range. Normal vision has a maximum range as well (under the spot rules). Darkvision has a shorter maximum range. However, because the two are supposed to function the same otherwise (except for black and white part), both can be extended by a spy glass (x2 extended) beyond their normal maximum ranges. That is the purpose of a spy glass - to extend your vision beyond your normal maximum range.

 

[Mistwell]

Darkvision only goes out to 60'. No matter how large something is, past 60', it is outside the range of darkvision.

It's outside the normal range of Darkvision. Much like things can be outside the normal range of normal vision. But when using a spy glass, the normal range of both should extend, because both function the same except for color.

I think we are at the point where there are reasonable arguments on both sides of this debate, and it's a DMs call.

 

[Branduil]

My telescope let's me see the rings of Saturn. The rings of Saturn are not within my normal visual range,

Sure they are. You merely lack the capacity to resolve and identify them with your naked eye.

I don't think the intent behind Darkvision's range was that it's like normal vision except extremely near-sighted. If it was there would be penalties by the foot for vision-based skills and checks. Of course you can do whatever you want in your own game, but it's basically a house-rule.

 

[ElectricDragon]

You are not required to use only normal vision to use Spot and Search checks. A Spot check using darkvision has the same penalties "by the foot*" as normal vision.

*Actually by every 10 feet.

Extraordinary abilities are not magical. They do not go away in an antimagic field. They can't be dispelled or suppressed. They are not affected by spell resistance. Why should it take magic to affect normal darkvision?

Ciao
Dave

 

[Slaved]

I disagree. Spot skill is often used with an opposed hide check, but not always (and that is explicit in the rule). It's used for all sorts of things, from "Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see" to "Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins". As far as game rules go, if you ask your DM "Can I see any details on the side of that barn that is a mile away" your DM is likely going to ask you to make a spot check versus a fixed DC adjusted for distance. It's the skill used to make such determinations.

All of the uses in the spot skill from the players handbook are for various forms of hiding or being hidden, disguise, and reading lips. I do not see anything at all about reading at a distance or judging how well you can make something out aside from what I mentioned above.

A dungeon master is free to use whatever he feels is appropriate, of course, but I do not see anything explicit about it. It looks like anything that you have line of sight on that is not trying to be hide, and was not hidden, you can simply see.

Other than being black and white, it's otherwise like normal sight. It's specifically called out in the rules as not being very different than normal sight.

Actually, there is another major difference, darkvision stops at a specified range. Beyond that range nothing can be seen.

And I look at it as normal vision, with a shorter normal range. Normal vision has a maximum range as well (under the spot rules).

Where is this maximum range under the spot rules???

Everything I have read so far says that your normal sight goes until something blocks it.

I did find this while looking around though..

Blinded
The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail.

Which at least says reading and spot are different.

 

[Zurai]

That's pretty funny. You quote the SRD on one hand and ignore it on the other?

FROM THE SRD:

Spot (Wis):

Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).