Darkvision through a telescope

[Hypersmurf]

But there is. It's right there in the spot rules. What is not making sense with that? The human with a +0 bonus to spot looking at a large sized object in plain sight can see that object at 200 feet if they roll a 20. But, if that thing is at 210 feet next turn, the human cannot see it (unless the DM decides to grant some sort of spot modifier...but such modifiers can only do so much, and at some point even those won't help).

Let's say the human rolls his 20, and sees the large creature in plain sight 200 feet away, starting the encounter. He shoots an arrow from his composite longbow with a -2 penalty (since the opponent is in the second range increment).

The opponent moves 10 feet back - he is now a large creature in plain sight 210 feet away.

The encounter has started. Can the human see the large creature?

-Hyp.

 

[Branduil]

Not my fault they didn't define what x2 magnification does. Heck, even your opinion is contrary to the majority of people here (most seem to think it increases the size category of objects seen by one size, which decreases the DC and hence extends the maximum range for normal vision but would have no impact on darkvision).

Magnification does what it does in real life. It makes things appear larger.

If there is anything we know for certain about this issue, it's that it isn't quite simple.

We don't know that. Sure, you can make anything complicated if you try to redefine what common sense definitions mean, but there's no need to do that.

False. There is a maximum range for normal vision. The maximum size modifier in the rules has a set DC modifier to it. Which means all creatures (ALL of them) have a maximum range for vision. There is no "infinite vision" for starting an encounter, unless you have an infinite spot check.

Who said anything about encounters? There is no maximum range to vision. My character can see stars billions of light years away. Vision encompasses all aspects of seeing, not just encounters.

If you cannot see something for distance, then your statement of "You can effectively see up to an infinite distance" is false.

But I can, unless you tell me I can't see the stars.

But there is. It's right there in the spot rules. What is not making sense with that? The human with a +0 bonus to spot looking at a large sized object in plain sight can see that object at 200 feet if they roll a 20. But, if that thing is at 210 feet next turn, the human cannot see it (unless the DM decides to grant some sort of spot modifier...but such modifiers can only do so much, and at some point even those won't help).

Quite honestly, I would walk out of a game where the DM told me I could no longer see an opponent just because he moved 10 feet back, without hiding behind cover. Surely you can see the ludicrousness of following such an interpretation of the rules to the letter? I think the spot rules are deliberately vague on what kind of bonuses can be applied to spot because the designers realized following the rules to the letter would result in inane situations like this one.

I understand what you are saying, I simply disagree. There is a difference.
But really, we are going in circles. You are retreading ground others have already tread in this very thread several times. What is the point? We obviously simply disagree. Why not leave it at that?

Because this is exactly the kind of rules lawyering I can't stand. It's the same kind of logic that leads to things like the bag of rats trick- ignoring logic in favor of mechanical benefits. You can argue that it's technically correct according to the rules, but only a poor DM would allow such nonsense.

 

[Mistwell]

Let's say the human rolls his 20, and sees the large creature in plain sight 200 feet away, starting the encounter. He shoots an arrow from his composite longbow with a -2 penalty (since the opponent is in the second range increment).

The opponent moves 10 feet back - he is now a large creature in plain sight 210 feet away.

The encounter has started. Can the human see the large creature?

-Hyp.

Yes. The encounter started and he made his spot check.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes. The encounter started and he made his spot check.

But if the creature was 60 feet away in the dark, starting the encounter when he came in range of the human's darkvision (Belt of Dwarvenkind, say), and he moves 10 feet back, can the human still see him?

If 200 feet is the maximum range of the human's vision, but he can still see the creature at 210 feet, then 200 feet is not the maximum range of the human's vision.

How far back could the large creature move on this flat open plain after the start of the encounter before the human loses sight of him? Another hundred feet? Another thousand feet?

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Magnification does what it does in real life. It makes things appear larger.

Thanks for that. :\ Now, what does it mean in game rules terms.

We don't know that. Sure, you can make anything complicated if you try to redefine what common sense definitions mean, but there's no need to do that.

We know for sure that my opinion is a minority one that has some support, and that your position is a minority one that has some support, and that neither you nor I hold the majority position in this thread. So if it's so friggen simple, how come you disagree with most people on it? Face it, this is a complicated question, and reasonable minds differ on it.

Who said anything about encounters?

When you notice something to begin an encounter is what is being discussed. That's been made clear, to you, twice already. Even if you disagree, you pretending nobody said anything about encounters is disingenuous.

There is no maximum range to vision. My character can see stars billions of light years away. Vision encompasses all aspects of seeing, not just encounters.

See earlier response on stars and planets. And that's it for our discussion. I'm not trying to be rude, and I have nothing against you and will be happy to discuss things in other threads with you. But, the whole stars and planets argument was rehashed so many times that I just cannot see anything useful coming out of our conversation anymore. You've just been repeating the thread for a while now, and that was the ultimate thread repeat.

 

[Mistwell]

But if the creature was 60 feet away in the dark, starting the encounter when he came in range of the human's darkvision (Belt of Dwarvenkind, say), and he moves 10 feet back, can the human still see him?

Nope. The spyglass can only extend darkvision to start an encounter.

If 200 feet is the maximum range of the human's vision, but he can still see the creature at 210 feet, then 200 feet is not the maximum range of the human's vision.

200 feet is the maximum range to notice something for that event to start the encounter. The example given of a guy on a ship trying to spot the enemy with a spy glass so he can start the encounter is what I was addressing.

How far back could the large creature move on this flat open plain after the start of the encounter before the human loses sight of him? Another hundred feet? Another thousand feet?

No idea. What do you think?

 

[Branduil]

Thanks for that. :\ Now, what does it mean in game rules terms.

If there is no rules-specific definition for a term, assume the real-world definition applies. Simple.

We know for sure that my opinion is a minority one that has some support, and that your position is a minority one that has some support, and that neither you nor I hold the majority position in this thread. So if it's so friggen simple, how come you disagree with most people on it? Face it, this is a complicated question, and reasonable minds differ on it.

What is the majority position? I don't remember a poll being taken.

When you notice something to begin an encounter is what is being discussed. That's been made clear, to you, twice already. Even if you disagree, you pretending nobody said anything about encounters is disingenuous.

See earlier response on stars and planets. And that's it for our discussion. I'm not trying to be rude, and I have nothing against you and will be happy to discuss things in other threads with you. But, the whole stars and planets argument was rehashed so many times that I just cannot see anything useful coming out of our conversation anymore. You've just been repeating the thread for a while now, and that was the ultimate thread repeat.

You've never addressed it in the first place. The Darkvision range limit applies always, not just in encounters. If there is an equatable range limit for normal vision it should also apply at all times, not just in encounters. Please explain how this not relevant before you dismiss it out of hand once again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nope. The spyglass can only extend darkvision to start an encounter.

So by using the spyglass, the dwarf can start an encounter in the dark at 120 feet, but once the encounter starts, he can't actually see what it was that the encounter has started with, even with the spyglass, until it gets within 60 feet?

Are you even suggesting that he actually sees whatever-it-is at 120 feet at all, or he merely starts an encounter with something he can't see, by virtue of making a Spot check at double his darkvision range?

-Hyp.

 

[Beginning of the End]

Well sure, but if you take that to the logical conclusion, it means you can see twice as far. Because the point of your vision where it ordinarily became too difficult to see the necessary details are now twice as big, making it easier to see. Which means you should be able to see roughly twice as far as you could without it (which is generally how 2x Magnification works). At least, that is the rule of thumb I would use based on the item description and vision rules.

Really? So if you're in the Underdark and your only light source is a torch that illuminates out to 40 feet, you'd allow someone to use a telescope to see out to 80 feet?

 

[ElectricDragon]

In an earlier edition there was a table that listed the maximum distances things could be spotted according to their size, contrast, and distance. Some things far away could be seen but few details could be made out. For example: (note that these numbers are made up and are not from this half-remembered table from a [I think] 2e book)

A Medium humanoid moving at 1000 feet is visible, but is it a human, gnoll, orc, bugbear, dwarf, elf, etc? You can't tell.

A Medium creature moving at 1500 feet, you can't tell its classification (humanoid, ooze, dragon, etc.) but you can tell some creature is there (just a moving dot on the horizon, but visible). You might could attack this creature with arrows or spells, but not knowing what it was, would you?

A castle, a keep, and a city can be seen for far longer distances.

The sun, the moon, the stars are special cases because they are extremely large and they provide their own light. A black hole is enormous but who has seen one with the naked eye? Even one closer and larger than some stars.

Alas, contrast was dropped for 3.xe to simplify things and for Spot, size is just hinted at with no size mods given for this case (which should we use: Hide, Grapple, or AC/Attack size mods).

Nevertheless, a maximum distance for Spotting something is given in the rules for each type of terrain. For example, plains is:

In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6×40 feet, although the specifics of your map may restrict line of sight.

So, 1,440 feet in plains terrain (less is more likely). This upper limit depends less on individual stats and skills than on the terrain, it seems.

Also, with darkvision, it can also be modified by a turn in the corridor ahead, thus limiting your 60 ft. darkvision to only 10 feet. Thus a monster 15 feet away is not visible to you despite your 60 ft. unwavering range. Thus with spells, PrCs, magic items, and specific conditions Darkvision range is variable, too without using the telescope.

Ciao
Dave