David Noonan on D&D Complexity

[delericho]

I find the notion that we should expect a dragon to die in 24 seconds of combat to be deeply, deeply disappointing.

High-level D&D combat is nasty, brutal, and short. So, in about 4 rounds either the dragon or the PCs will lie dead, or one side or the other will have been forced to retreat. Usually.

To be honest, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

 

[Wik]

In the Goode Olde Days it took at least 4 minutes.

Ha ha. Cute.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

So, I shouldn't play a game I totally love, that has almost everything I want in favor of one that doesn't, because of one chink in the spell and monster design that makes it impossible to run without a massive amount of prep time and an accountands mind from a certain point on?

I'm not one of the guys that only ever look at D&D and want it to perfectly match my narrow wishes. But this a genuine problem.

Maybe it's no problem for you, but do you really want to tell me the game is more fun to you with all the extra weight?

D&D isn't something exclusive, it's the worlds largest RPG and should be open. High rules complexety sadly means that level 10+ are pretty exclusive to people that can actually handle all that load, no matter how much the other aspects of higher level gaming may appeal to us.

D00d, first of all slow down. I was directly addressing someone else with my statement not you.

That being said, you play whatever makes you happy. If that's D&D great, if it's something else great, but my contention is that anything worth doing right is going to take some work and if the work payload is what comes with the system you have a few choices, you can streamline the work so that it's easier for you to handle, you can gut it out and do the work that's needed, you can find another game that you enjoy more or you can just complain about it. All of these are viable solutions. I prefer to simply streamline the process and do the work. Could the system be easier, sure. but with options come complexity and I accept that. If I want the options I'm going to have to accept the fact that it's going to be a little more work, and that's that. Complaining about it doesnt help me in the slightest.

There are plenty of games that I dont play anymore because of various reaasons. I dont bad mouth them or ther designers or run them down. I SIMPLY DONT PLAY THEM ANYMORE.

Now am I going to tell you that the game is more fun with all of the extra weight, no. From a construction standpoint I like having the extra options to customize something like a Great Wyrm to get it to do what I want it to do in a combat encounter, which is to challenge my players.

Is the game LESS FUN with all of the extra weight? HELL NO.

This is an example of why. One of my first games of 3rd Ed D&D my players ran into some goblins. The first batch they dispactched with some ease, but it was later on in the boss fights where I slapped on some fighter and rouge levels onto the the boss and his attendants that my players just kind of looked at me and said "Damn D00d, that was a tough ass fight, but it was awesome."

It took a little extra work to do but it was soooooo worth it. It still is for me.

Look suggesting to someone that they might be better off playing something else is not a challenge or snark in any form or fashon. It's how I live. When something that you do for fun stops becoming fun, it's time to switch up or stop doing it. Life is too short for BS.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In all seriousness, Whizbang Dustyboots, the last time I fought a powerful dragon it was not that big a deal.

I was in a 2e Forgotten Realms campaign. We were 9th-10th level. The DM had this ancient large red fly by -- we had actually brushed up with this thing long before.

We were supposed to be intimidated. Hide. Let it pass. You know the drill.

One of of the players was feeling a bit flustered. "Woo hoo! Mr. Dragon!!! Come here! Baby need a new pair of dragonhide boots!"

The thing is we had spent the last 19 million sessions fighting Demonic this and Drow that. I had become frustrated with so much DR, SR, and immunities up the wazoo.

From my POV, the DM had been keeping us in check by nickel and diming the PCs a thousand and one different ways. A dragon looked like a very simple clean fight compared to what I was used to.

The DM had no idea what was coming.

The funny thing is, half the party ducked out and hid just because it seemed karmically bad to taunt the DM's pet dragon.

The rest of us... "Dragonhide boots! Dragonhide boots! Woo hoo!!!"

We opened up that flying bag of 250 hit points like a children on a sugar high with a shiny package on Christmas morning.

We lost one guy, but the dragon did not have a snowballs chance of living even if he might of gotten one or two more of us.

I think it took 5 rounds.

Dragons got beefed up in 2e. And our DM even beefed them up a couple notches more.

The dragon died so pathecially becuase our PCs and usual enemies had been locked in such a crazy arms race of buffing, countermagic, defensive magic that the plain old dragon had been completely out evolved, like a burly Neanderthal man blundering into of tribe of Homo Sapiens Sapiens armed with a flintlocks.

Part of it was also that 9th-10th level was sort the top of the food chain for 1e/2e. What monster straight from the MM could challenge such PCs, especially in Forgotten Realms?

How many rounds does it take to kill a 1e Large Ancient Red? 5-6 10th level PCs can easily take it down in 2 rounds.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

He's the first one I've seen, though, who posts it in an instructive manner that helps other DM's. I'd love to see more of these tips for managing a ton of abilities, myself, because the only tips I've seen from others pretty much boil down to, "well, don't use so many abilities, or use them straight out of the book," and that's not very helpful when you're trying to challenge four or five people who have spent the past six months optimizing their PCs for maximum carnage, and blow through the opponents with only core abilities like a hot knife through butter.

I've all-but written off high-level DM'ing from now on (above 11-12th level), because of the actual headache in running all these huge-block-of-text monsters and NPC's. One thing I did start using, and will continue to do so for any abilites over 8 dice or so, is using average damage for the result. I was using average damage completely, but I like Dave's tactic of 1/3rd dice and 2/3rd's average value, which is one I believe I'll be sticking with; it still gives an organic feel without wasting too much time.

D00d, I used to run Champions / HERO SYSTEM combats with 3 PC's and 2-3 Hero NPC's against 5 -6 supervillians plus minions sometimes so keeping track of multiple abilites justsort of became second nature to me

The average damage thing is actually a good idea, me personally, I like rolling all of those dice so I probably will wind up using it sparingly.

I hear what youre saying about the advice though. I like the options so I use them knowing full well that it's going to take some extra time for prep, it's all part of the game though. For me anyway.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

High-level D&D combat is nasty, brutal, and short. So, in about 4 rounds either the dragon or the PCs will lie dead, or one side or the other will have been forced to retreat. Usually.

To be honest, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Agreed. Either half the party has been taken down by round 4 or the dragon is clearly about to die. Or both.

Considering the offensive might of a dragon in all editions, only an absurdly numerous party composed of PCs who are far too low level to be proper dragon hunters could draw out the battle longer.

Sure, the battle in its entirety might last longer than 4 rounds. But one side is going to be the overwhelming favorite to prevail and the other side should be bugging out by round 4. Most of the time.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

In the good old days the dragon didn't die -- you SUBDUED it.

Ken

 

[Gold Roger]

D00d, first of all slow down. I was directly addressing someone else with my statement not you.

That being said, you play whatever makes you happy. If that's D&D great, if it's something else great, but my contention is that anything worth doing right is going to take some work and if the work payload is what comes with the system you have a few choices, you can streamline the work so that it's easier for you to handle, you can gut it out and do the work that's needed, you can find another game that you enjoy more or you can just complain about it. All of these are viable solutions. I prefer to simply streamline the process and do the work. Could the system be easier, sure. but with options complexity and I accept that. If I want the options I'm going to have to accept the fact that it's going to be a little more work, and that's that. Complaining about it doesnt help me in the slightest.

There are plenty of games that I dont play anymore because of various reaasons. I dont bad mouth them or ther designers or run them down. I SIMPLY DONT PLAY THEM ANYMORE.

Now am I going to tell you that the game is more fun with all of the extra weight, no. From a construction standpoint I like having the extra options to customize something like a Great Wyrm to get it to do what I want it to do in a combat encounter, which is to challenge my players.

Is the game LESS FUN with all of the extra weight? HELL NO.

This is an example of why. One of my first games of 3rd Ed D&D my players ran into some goblins. The first batch they dispactched with some ease, but it was later on in the boss fights where I slapped on some fighter and rouge levels onto the the boss and his attendants that my players just kind of looked at me and said "Damn D00d, that was a tough ass fight, but it was awesome."

It took a little extra work to do but it was soooooo worth it. It still is for me.

Look suggesting to someone that they might be better off playing something else is not a challenge or snark in any form or fashon. It's how I live. When something that you do for fun stops becoming fun, it's time to switch up or stop doing it. Life is too short for BS.

Slow down? I haven't even picked up speed. I'm simply disagreeing with. Don't see how that means I need to slow down.

Second, I don't see how anybody is complaining, at least not me. I'm having loads of fun with D&D, but it's not perfect. I'm simply saying where it can and should be improved, no, not even, I'm agreeing with one of its main designers that said so.

Third. You may be missing the point of what complexity I'm and others are talking about. Slapping some fighter and rogue levels on a goblin is easy. And a hard fight isn't complex. But a combat where each PC has at least four different buffs on them, each with different durations, against enemies that have buffs as well, where then someone gets nauseated and daed, another is held and affected by a ray of enervation, someone else grapples and a low maneuverability flyer is around and then an area dispel is dropped- that's just to much for many and usual from mid level on.

Can I streamline for myself? Hell yea. My current group has the unspoken rule that many buffs and dispels are never used, as well as some other things.

But if the majority of people has to streamline/avoid certain levels/looses oversight, is it wrong to say that the next edition of the game should propably be more streamlined?

I'm merely suggesting how something fun can be improved. I'm not not having fun and cry that I don't have fun.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Slow down? I haven't even picked up speed. I'm simply disagreeing with. Don't see how that means I need to slow down.

Second, I don't see how anybody is complaining, at least not me. I'm having loads of fun with D&D, but it's not perfect. I'm simply saying where it can and should be improved, no, not even, I'm agreeing with one of its main designers that said so.

Third. You may be missing the point of what complexity I'm and others are talking about. Slapping some fighter and rogue levels on a goblin is easy. And a hard fight isn't complex. But a combat where each PC has at least four different buffs on them, each with different durations, against enemies that have buffs as well, where then someone gets nauseated and daed, another is held and affected by a ray of enervation, someone else grapples and a low maneuverability flyer is around and then an area dispel is dropped- that's just to much for many and usual from mid level on.

Can I streamline for myself? Hell yea. My current group has the unspoken rule that many buffs and dispels are never used, as well as some other things.

But if the majority of people has to streamline/avoid certain levels/looses oversight, is it wrong to say that the next edition of the game should propably be more streamlined?

I'm merely suggesting how something fun can be improved. I'm not not having fun and cry that I don't have fun.

So then why even respond to my post in the manner that you did?

There were about two or three other people who responded to me without sounding like I kicked their dog. You werent one of them.

And thanks for taking the Goblins with levels slapped on them thing out of context. I'll simply say that what I was trying get was this: THE EXTRA WORK IS SOMETIMES NEEDED TO ENSURE THAT FUN IS HAD BY MY PLAYERS.

And all of that other stuff youre talking about I've handled as part of prep.

Status effects? Stat cards handed to a player when they've been hit with an effect with the amount of rounds it lasts. Before there were actual stat cards I used index cards that I preped with ALL Status effects before hand. You only have to do it once and youre goo to go for the rest of your sessions.

The BattleBox by Fiery Dragon has manuever cards (like grapple)and a card that details the mechanics for turning and dispel Magic on them for quick reference. I use those as well.

For Spell durations for your PC's Spell cards or the durations on index cards for your PC's who sohould be keep track of those durations themselves. I print out an entire level's worth of spell cards for the PC's as they gain a new spell I hand it over to them.

With prep before hand you can streamline play. Now if you dont want to prep then that's you, me I like giveing my players tangible things that help them and me run a smoother game.

 

[Gold Roger]

So then why even respond to my post in the manner that you did?

There were about two or three other people who responded to me without sounding like I kicked their dog. You werent one of them.

And thanks for taking the Goblins with levels slapped on them thing out of context. I'll simply say that what I was trying get was this: THE EXTRA WORK IS SOMETIMES NEEDED TO ENSURE THAT FUN IS HAD BY MY PLAYERS.

And all of that other stuff youre talking about I've handled as part of prep.

Status effects? Stat cards handed to a player when they've been hit with an effect with the amount of rounds it lasts. Before there were actual stat cards I used index cards that I preped with ALL Status effects before hand. You only have to do it once and youre goo to go for the rest of your sessions.

The BattleBox by Fiery Dragon has manuever cards (like grapple)and a card that details the mechanics for turning and dispel Magic on them for quick reference. I use those as well.

For Spell durations for your PC's Spell cards or the durations on index cards for your PC's who sohould be keep track of those durations themselves. I print out an entire level's worth of spell cards for the PC's as they gain a new spell I hand it over to them.

With prep before hand you can streamline play. Now if you dont want to prep then that's you, me I like giveing my players tangible things that help them and me run a smoother game.

I don't see how I have in any way responded to you in a way that should have offended anyone, but I'll let the mods be the judge of that.

Well, I have little money to burn on lots of stat cards. I don't have printer to do them on my own. I don't have the time to write them all down.

There are many DMs that have jobs and families. They to, may simply not have the time to invest as much as you suggest.

Further, I agree that extra investment should and will always pay of. But at a certain point the game simply requires a whole lot of extra investment.

Many DMs have almost all their prep work taken up by stat blocks. How could they then have at least once more so much time to read up on everything?

Stat and spell cards are certainly a great help and good suggestion, but it's still a lot of reading up, just without the page flipping.

And simply having the text present doesn't always suffice. I know of the top of my head that bulls strength is 1 minute per level and gives +4 strength. And I know where the plus two strength bonus is added in. But once you add in stacking, the accounting for adding that bonus to the charsheet/remembering it with every strike, the accounting to be done when it's dispelled (the problem with dispelling is not the spell itself, but all the load of removing the effects one by one) and then multiply by ten for all the effects going on, that can still be quite a load.

You certainly seem to be an expert at streamlining the game and keeping it running smoothly, which is great, but I fail to see how suggesting the game could be more streamlined by nature is such a terrible idea.