David Noonan on D&D Complexity

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Chicken Licken?

 

[wilrich]

So? If they successfully persuade us that 3.5e has gotten quite clunky over its lifespan, and that a 4e would address these problems, well, bully for them.

I agree completely. Based primarily on the design and development columns it appears that the designers are aware of many of the same things that plague me about D&D 3.5 and, I am starting to eagerly anticipate what a 4ed which addressed many of the issues identified might look like. It has gotten to the point where I almost wish for 4ed sooner rather than later, because it seems like it really could be a quantum leap forward in game design.

 

[A'koss]

R&D Confession: To be blunt, I think dragons are overdesigned. They’re eighty gallons of fun in a forty-gallon barrel. And the most troublesome aspect of dragons is their potent spellcasting. Those big sorcerer (and sorcerer/cleric) lists certainly make dragons more effective, but they also add about 20,000 moles of complexity. (Side note: we need a unit of measurement for game-design complexity.) And worse, spellcasting makes dragons less archetypically draconic. Rather than rampaging through the PCs and breathing fire on them, the dragon is waving his claws around and chanting. So dragon spellcasting has a big ole’ bullseye on it—for the Delve, anyway.

I had a thread on this very topic not so long ago. I'm glad to see the guys over at WotC are beginning to see the light...

 

[Hussar]

Here's a thought for streamlining dragons.

How much is the spellcasting really worth in CR terms? +1, +2? +3 at the absolute outside? So, here's my idea.

Strip out the spellcasting completely. Then use an older dragon with a +2 CR from what you were going to use. That pretty much includes all the buffs - AC, BAB, HP - automatically, makes his saving throws high enough that he can survive and you're good to go. Now you have a nice melee engine of destruction and you don't have to worry about spellcasting whatsoever.

So, if I was going to use an adult Blue dragon (CR 14), I simply strip out the 5 sorc levels he would have, and use a mature Blue (CR 16) without the 7th level sorc abilities.

To be fair, it should be remembered that it is only at the very top end that dragons get so many spellcasting abilities. Even a CR 16 Blue dragon only has 7 levels of sorc - not a huge thing to deal with.

3) Dragons need to keep pace with characters as they level up. As characters become more robust, dragons need to be able to keep up with a lot of the new abilities player characters will manifest. This doesn't have to be spells and prestige classes and such (although those can be added by DMs who don't mind the extra complexity), but the basic CR 20 dragon should be a significant challenge for a group of the appropriate level. Dragons should probably have an innate resistance to divinations and such, to make scrying on them, teleporting to them and even using legend lore and commune less reliable. Dragons should likely also be aware of anyone attempting powerful magic against them, probably a 10 percent chance per spell level +10 or something.

Scry comes with a saving throw. That means that dragons are almost certainly NEVER going to get scryed. Since you cannot scry locations, scry/buff/teleport is a very poor option at best. Heck, a simple illusion spell would screw up the teleport.

 

[pedr]

Chicken Licken?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_is_Falling

</tangent>

 

[delericho]

As a DM, why use them all? Let the players play with them, and limit what you use.

Power creep. A PC built with anything from the Cores + Completes is noticably better at a given level than one built with anything from the Cores only.

Additionally, and perhaps more significantly, the article makes the comment that, counterintuitively, using feats and spells from the Draconomicon actually leads to a significant reduction of the complexity of running the dragons. What's more, doing so has the effect of making those encounters feel more like one might imagine encounters with dragons should feel (more emphasis on melee and breath weapons, less on overt spellcasting).

Personally, I think the example dragons (and, indeed, the PCs from the previous columns) are exceptional examples of design. But, I bet designing those creatures was not a quick task.

 

[Hussar]

delericho: is that necessarily true? That using non-core material automatically builds more powerful characters? Considering that whenever I've seen ratings of power levels of base classes, the top three are always core - Cleric, wizard and druid. Sure feats play a part, but, again, I've rarely seen feats that are more powerful than say, power attack.

I'm not convinced that the power creep is as widespread as some might say. I think that the majority of feats, spells, classes and whatnot have been fairly well balanced against core material. Granted, this is just my experience, but, I realy haven't seen it. In my World's Largest Dungeon game, I've opened the doors for the players while remaining mostly core (with a couple of deviations) for the adventure. I definitely have not see the party have an easier time with non-core material than core.

In fact, the strongest characters are the ones that have stayed closest to core.

 

[Thomas Percy]

I think a lot of people enjoy the complexity of the game, as evidenced by how many people purchase and play the game. I'm all for simplifying how the game is played if it can be done without removing the complexity of what is presented. A simple coin flip could be used to determine everything that happens in a fantasy world but, of course, if you have a -1 circumstance penalty, you're kinda screwed.

And their (designers) job is to find for core rules a point where both complexity and simplycity are in balance. Imho it's a question of using common sense and a lot of asking players on the messageboards.

For me this is too complicated:

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

or especially THIS:

Grapple
Grapple Checks

Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier

The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small -4, Tiny -8, Diminutive -12, Fine -16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll.
Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2

Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3

Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.
Step 4

Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.
Grappling Consequences

While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.
No Threatened Squares

You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.
No Dexterity Bonus

You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)
No Movement

You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling.
If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Activate a Magic Item

You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.
Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Cast a Spell

You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.
Damage Your Opponent

While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Draw a Light Weapon

You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.
Escape from Grapple

You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).
Move

You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.
Retrieve a Spell Component

You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check.
Pin Your Opponent

You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
Break Another’s Pin

If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned.
Use Opponent’s Weapon

If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a -4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action).

You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action.
If You’re Pinning an Opponent

You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.

You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt.

You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa).

You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent.
If You’re Pinned by an Opponent

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.
Joining a Grapple

If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple.

If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against.
Multiple Grapplers

Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.

 

[delericho]

delericho: is that necessarily true? That using non-core material automatically builds more powerful characters? Considering that whenever I've seen ratings of power levels of base classes, the top three are always core - Cleric, wizard and druid. Sure feats play a part, but, again, I've rarely seen feats that are more powerful than say, power attack.

Well...

I wouldn't say that adding options automatically makes the character more powerful. But it obviously can't reduce the possible power output. And there are frequently synergies hidden away in the rules such that feat X plus feat Y plus PrC Z provides a power boost. (Especially hard to keep a track of, since X, Y and Z are generally from different books.)

My experience with such things is that the characters tend not to be more powerful all-round, but they do tend to be more specialised, and therefore more powerful within their specialities. Provided they then play to their strengths, that leads to a perceived power boost.

 

[Hussar]

Der: I'd agree with that.

Thomas Percy: You find changing your BAB to equal your character level, bumping your str by 6 and adding some hp overly complicated? Which part? To me, it's a step by step process (with three very specific steps). Taken on its own, it's hardly a huge issue.

As far as grappling goes, again, it's a flowchart of action. Follow the steps and it's pretty simple. The vast majority of the time, the attacker is either going to straight up try to damage the opponent or escape. The other options come into play extremely rarely. None of the individual steps require any great skill to go through.

Is it more complicated than a straight up attack? Probably. Is each step more complicated? Not really. Just follow the steps. What would likely help most people who have trouble with grapple is if they had put a diagram of a flowchart in the book to illustrate the process.