Daze and Beastmasters

[Caliber]

Hello everyone. I'm back with another Beastmaster related question that I'm curious about (here is my last one).

For the most part, a Beastmaster Ranger has to spend an action to get his beast to take an equivalent action. To make a basic attack, the master has to Standard Action. To move, a Move Action (although the master can move as well.) Etc ...

The beast, however, also has its own set of actions. Generally it doesn't choose to use these actions of its own will, but the rules state that if the master is incapacitated in some manner, then it can do so. So two questions.

1) Does Dazing the master count as incapacitating him? I think Stunning or knocking the master Unconscious would certainly. Daze seems trickier. But the animal has a full complement of actions; why is it suddenly limited to either moving, or attacking? Could the beast, seeing its master obviously incapacitated, take some amount of self-control to move and attack his enemies?

2) If the beast itself is Dazed, could the master use a Move to cause the beast to move adjacent to an enemy, then a Ranger power that has the beast attack? The power doesn't indicate it is using up any of the beast's actions; should beast attacks within Ranger powers be understood to all be Free actions?

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Mort_Q]

1) Good question, as it forces you to ask so many more.

It's very cinematic to say that the beast can act independently when the Ranger is Dominated (it knows somethings up). Dazed or stunned? Is the worry balance? Letting the Beast act independently is approaching immunity to those conditions.

I'd rule on this case by case, and keep in mind that if the PC "is present in the encounter but incapable of commanding the beast, [the beast] must move as far as it can toward [the PC] each round on its turn."



2) Again, good question. The flavour of the Beast powers would suggest that it is acting in some way, either threatening or attacking, but ones where it doesn't have a primary or secondary, it just needs to be adjacent.

I'd say the any power that has a attack, that attack is it's action, so it could only do that one thing if dazed.

 

[keterys]

Dazing is not incapacitated. I'm actually guessing that stunned is also not intended to count as incapacitated.

Either way, you need the standard action to do the standard action beast attack, so move + beast attack does not work.

 

[Caliber]

Thanks for the answers! I thought of another one since Wednesday and hope you guys will be willing to weigh in on this one as well.

3) When does a beast "act"? By the rules, the beast acts at the same time as its master, but does this mean exactly at the same time? Could a beast run by an opponent, drawing an OA, and thus exhausting the enemies ability to OA vs the master? Alternatively, could the beast draw an OA giving the master a chance to attack using the Beast Protector feat (which grants an OA to the master whenever an enemy attacks the beast in melee)? It would seem that either one of the scenarios above or the other must be true right?

(Summarize: even though the beast and the Ranger act at the same time, are they acting on the same turn, or on separate turns that occur at the same time?)

 

[CoarseDragon]

It is our groups understanding that the beast and the beast master are individuals that act on the same initiative. In our group (I am the Ranger) I decide who acts or moves first. So if the beast and I both move then whichever provokes an OA takes the hit. I will say that normally I take the attack instead of the beast - becasue he is my best friend.

The rules say the Ranger uses a Standard action to direct the beast. So if the Ranger can not use a Standard action he can not direct the beast and in our group when that has happened the DM has taken control of the beast. Otherwise the Ranger can act or he can direct the beast to act in his stead.

 

[CubeKnight]

Thanks for the answers! I thought of another one since Wednesday and hope you guys will be willing to weigh in on this one as well.

3) When does a beast "act"? By the rules, the beast acts at the same time as its master, but does this mean exactly at the same time? Could a beast run by an opponent, drawing an OA, and thus exhausting the enemies ability to OA vs the master? Alternatively, could the beast draw an OA giving the master a chance to attack using the Beast Protector feat (which grants an OA to the master whenever an enemy attacks the beast in melee)? It would seem that either one of the scenarios above or the other must be true right?

(Summarize: even though the beast and the Ranger act at the same time, are they acting on the same turn, or on separate turns that occur at the same time?)

Gonna hijack your tread for a question, hope you don't mind

Regarding "Beast Protector", it says I get an OA if an enemy attacks my beast companion in melee. Can I take said OA with a Ranged weapon? Or can I only take it if I'm wielding a Melee weapon?

 

[Mort_Q]

Can I take said OA with a Ranged weapon? Or can I only take it if I'm wielding a Melee weapon?

OAs are, by definition, melee basic attacks.

That said, the Sharpshooter paragon path lets you take non-provoking OAs with a bow or loaded crossbow.

Whether or not this means you can take the OAs at range, due to the Beast Protector feat is certainly open to debate.

 

[CubeKnight]

OAs are, by definition, melee basic attacks.

That said, the Sharpshooter paragon path lets you take non-provoking OAs with a bow or loaded crossbow.

Whether or not this means you can take the OAs at range, due to the Beast Protector feat is certainly open to debate.

Hmmm, I see. Thanks for the reply!

 

[keterys]

The beast doesn't get its own initiative and action pool... so I'd have to say that you can't take an OA when you move it to do things, as it's during your turn.

I actually think people might be trying to make this a lot more complicated than it actually is...

 

[Caliber]

The beast doesn't get its own initiative and action pool... so I'd have to say that you can't take an OA when you move it to do things, as it's during your turn.

I actually think people might be trying to make this a lot more complicated than it actually is...

So would that mean you'd let a beast use up an enemy's only OA for the turn so that the master could move about/shoot him in the face with impunity? Trying to confirm, because it seems to me as if it is one case or the other ...

I think a fair bit of the confusion I am having is that WotC seems somewhat conflicted in the writing of the Beastmaster Ranger rules. They definitely want to keep the action economy into mind, so they required the master to, for the most part, spend an action to make the beast do anything. But they also seem to want to acknowledge that the beast is an independent creature, able to act on its own without the master's presence, giving it its own set of actions and allowing for occasional autonomy.

As for the ranged question OA question, I thought maybe it's relevant to point out Beast Protector lets you OA even if you aren't adjacent to the enemy making the attack, as long as you are adjacent to the beast itself. Not exactly what you're looking for, but perhaps a step there ...