D&D 5E Dealing with optimizers at the table

[NotAYakk]

If some players go for super optimized builds while others go for RP and character builds, you get some super characters and some not. That’s part of the problem.

Sure, that is a problem. But most of it isn't unsurmountable.

The stuff causing issues is gonzo, high end smash, and unkillable. I’ve DM’ed for decades so I know a lot of tricks to deal with this stuff.

As noted, smash optimization isn't a serious problem. You can add 0s. And you can boost up monster toughness.

And then you can boost up the non-optimized players DPR.

My real problem is the attitude and lack of consideration for others.

Nobody can deal with your dislike of other people but you. Really.

If you don't like people doing charop, I can point out how to make doing charop not a problem as a DM, and thus point out the issue isn't liking doing charop.

But I can't make you not dislike charop.

The thing some of my players love to do and have fun doing is directly causing my other players to not have fun.

If everyone is super, nobody is.

You, the DM, are in charge of how super the other players are. You don't even have to completely nullify the optimization; if they are doing 3x the damage, and you double other PCs damage, they are now doing 1.5x the damage. This is still very strong, but it no longer negates the other player's fun.

There is more than one sub-type of optimizer. There are those who want to mechanically dominate the table, and there are those who like making powerful builds.

It is true that those who want to dominate the table are going to want to mechanically dominate the table, and will be upset if anyone else gets more power. Problem exists between chair and character sheet.

But this is little different than someone who stands up and takes off their shirt and yells every 6 seconds.

 

[overgeeked]

Sure, that is a problem. But most of it isn't unsurmountable.

As noted, smash optimization isn't a serious problem. You can add 0s. And you can boost up monster toughness.

And then you can boost up the non-optimized players DPR.

Nobody can deal with your dislike of other people but you. Really.

If you don't like people doing charop, I can point out how to make doing charop not a problem as a DM, and thus point out the issue isn't liking doing charop.

But I can't make you not dislike charop.


If everyone is super, nobody is.

You, the DM, are in charge of how super the other players are. You don't even have to completely nullify the optimization; if they are doing 3x the damage, and you double other PCs damage, they are now doing 1.5x the damage. This is still very strong, but it no longer negates the other player's fun.

There is more than one sub-type of optimizer. There are those who want to mechanically dominate the table, and there are those who like making powerful builds.

It is true that those who want to dominate the table are going to want to mechanically dominate the table, and will be upset if anyone else gets more power. Problem exists between chair and character sheet.

But this is little different than someone who stands up and takes off their shirt and yells every 6 seconds.

Why is the solution never have the optimizers stop? Why is the solution always to simply put up with it or mangle the rules to deal with them? Yes, I’m aware I can change all the rules of the game to suit the playstyle of two of my players so that they are catered to and the other five players get to sit and be bored to the point of wanting to quit, all because these two optimizers have to be coddled and let shine. Nah. They’re disruptive. They’re actively ruining the other players’ fun. Their insistence on optimizing is the problem.

Adding zeros and otherwise beefing up monsters simply makes combat more deadly for everyone else, makes it take longer, and kills non-optimized PCs. It’s a terrible solution.

 

[billd91]

Awww now he's deleted all his posts except the original one! And it removes the quotes. We will never again experience the perfection of someone honestly and straightforwardly stating that doing more damage than other PCs is inherently abusive!

Oh, give it up. You're just on his ignore list now.

 

[Wolfram stout]

Why is the solution never have the optimizers stop? Why is the solution always to simply put up with it or mangle the rules to deal with them? Yes, I’m aware I can change all the rules of the game to suit the playstyle of two of my players so that they are catered to and the other five players get to sit and be bored to the point of wanting to quit, all because these two optimizers have to be coddled and let shine. Nah. They’re disruptive. They’re actively ruining the other players’ fun. Their insistence on optimizing is the problem.

Adding zeros and otherwise beefing up monsters simply makes combat more deadly for everyone else, makes it take longer, and kills non-optimized PCs. It’s a terrible solution.

If we were talking about 3.x then I would be right there with you. But I have not run across that level of game breaking optimization in 5th. Which does not mean anything, I am not a great optimizer myself, but I have lurked and read around and tried to find the game breaking builds. Like others, the only builds I have seen that approach game-breaking are higher level and using multiclass.

I get you don't want to go into builds, and you are right, the thread would then focus only on that one build. But, can you tell us at what level you see the optimizing starting to break the game? Because I admit I don't play past mid to mid-high level. There maybe systemic issues at higher levels that I have never reached.

 

[Horwath]

Why is the solution never have the optimizers stop? Why is the solution always to simply put up with it or mangle the rules to deal with them? Yes, I’m aware I can change all the rules of the game to suit the playstyle of two of my players so that they are catered to and the other five players get to sit and be bored to the point of wanting to quit, all because these two optimizers have to be coddled and let shine. Nah. They’re disruptive. They’re actively ruining the other players’ fun. Their insistence on optimizing is the problem.

Adding zeros and otherwise beefing up monsters simply makes combat more deadly for everyone else, makes it take longer, and kills non-optimized PCs. It’s a terrible solution.

Because optimizers are not the problem in your group.
You are!

You are wondering why a DPR built has most DPR. Well, in Roleplaying game that is DPRs role. Simple as that.

What is next? Why is Life cleric hogging up 95% of the party heal capacity? Cleric should only heal by smashing most basic potion of your head and only healing you for 2d4, no bonus wis or healing domain specializations. We cant have any of those game breaking mechanics in healing spells.

Rogues having expertise? Better make sure to put yourself in most difficult situation so you always roll your skills with disadvantage, we cant have those poor fighters feel underrepresented as skill-monkeys.

Your wizards has managed to hit 17 people with fireball? How can you justify dealing 136d6 damage with one action? What about the poor lore bard with 1d6+2 damage per round?

 

[Istbor]

Why is the solution never have the optimizers stop? Why is the solution always to simply put up with it or mangle the rules to deal with them? Yes, I’m aware I can change all the rules of the game to suit the playstyle of two of my players so that they are catered to and the other five players get to sit and be bored to the point of wanting to quit, all because these two optimizers have to be coddled and let shine. Nah. They’re disruptive. They’re actively ruining the other players’ fun. Their insistence on optimizing is the problem.

Adding zeros and otherwise beefing up monsters simply makes combat more deadly for everyone else, makes it take longer, and kills non-optimized PCs. It’s a terrible solution.

Then it is time to remove them from that specific group. Have a group where everyone is on the same page, and if possible, another group where everyone is on a different, but just as relevant page.

I can't speak for your tastes, but if the dislike for playing with a character built to be excellent at a task is shared by you yourself, then you can't share that group with everyone and be happy.

So far, from what I have inferred from reading this, is that you feel optimization isn't fun for everyone. However the optimizer(s) don't stop. I don't know whether you have actually insisted this to the player(s) or not yet. If you mentioned that, I missed it. Sorry. What I want to say though is, it might be fun for the optimizer(s), who may not know this perception that they are cramping anyone's style, by just having fun in D&D their way.

Either you 'ban' optimization, however that would look like, and you make one or some of the group unhappy by denying them the fun they find in D&D, you as you say let them stomp over everything doing nothing to fix or prevent it, in which case you and others are not having your fun, or you come to a joint conclusion that your table may not be the table for them. Maybe a different DM would produce different results of your group interaction, so you all can stay together, maybe not. Right now, with the information given, I don't see a great way for everyone to play with everything without SOMEONE having potentially less fun than the rest.

So yeah. One solution could be that you make the optimizer(s) stop. That sounds like you have just reversed the problem, and made the game unfun for them at the expense of others. I am not saying that they should have more consideration. Only that it doesn't solve your current issue, just changes who is having fun. I can't speak for the others, but considering this thought, it could be why not a lot of offers of how to flat out stop it while keeping the group intact have been presented.

Unless you have a problem player(s). Then advice changes. That doesn't seem to be the case from what I have read though.

 

[NotAYakk]

Why is the solution never have the optimizers stop?

Really, don't play with people who you don't want to play with. I don't know what else to say?

D&D has a fun character building minigame. If you don't want to play with people who enjoy that game, take away PCs building characters, or don't play with them.

Or make the game work for it. I don't think making the game work for it is hard.

Why is the solution always to simply put up with it or mangle the rules to deal with them?

"Mangle the rules"? I mean, you seem to have emotional baggage here. That is a really loaded way to word it.

And if you hate people who do charop, don't play with people you hate. But please, try not to state they are bad people for having fun.

Yes, I’m aware I can change all the rules of the game to suit the playstyle of two of my players so that they are catered to and the other five players get to sit and be bored to the point of wanting to quit, all because these two optimizers have to be coddled and let shine. Nah. They’re disruptive. They’re actively ruining the other players’ fun. Their insistence on optimizing is the problem.

So in my solution, nobody is bored. So the problem wasn't the optimization.

Adding zeros and otherwise beefing up monsters simply makes combat more deadly for everyone else, makes it take longer, and kills non-optimized PCs. It’s a terrible solution.

How does combat take longer if monsters have 10x HP and players deal 10x damage? Adding a 0 doesn't take that long.

And the non-optimized PCs, as I described, are not weak in my solution.

So you appear to be railing about "if someone over optimizes and I as a DM don't try to fix it, there is a problem". I described how to fix it, and you seem to continue to be complaining about what happens if you don't fix it the way I described.

Repeating the problem, which I addressed and described a solution to, isn't a response to what I'm saying.

 

[Istbor]

Really, don't play with people who you don't want to play with. I don't know what else to say?

D&D has a fun character building minigame. If you don't want to play with people who enjoy that game, take away PCs building characters, or don't play with them.

Or make the game work for it. I don't think making the game work for it is hard.


"Mangle the rules"? I mean, you seem to have emotional baggage here. That is a really loaded way to word it.

And if you hate people who do charop, don't play with people you hate. But please, try not to state they are bad people for having fun.

So in my solution, nobody is bored. So the problem wasn't the optimization.


How does combat take longer if monsters have 10x HP and players deal 10x damage? Adding a 0 doesn't take that long.

And the non-optimized PCs, as I described, are not weak in my solution.

So you appear to be railing about "if someone over optimizes and I as a DM don't try to fix it, there is a problem". I described how to fix it, and you seem to continue to be complaining about what happens if you don't fix it the way I described.

Repeating the problem, which I addressed and described a solution to, isn't a response to what I'm saying.

No. The more I think about this and read, the more I think your top comment becomes the best solution. There are some of this group that find different aspects of D&D fun. You can mush them together as much as you want, they can even be really great friends all around, but if some see D&D as fun in a fundamentally different way than others, someone is going to be rubbed the wrong way.

It sounded like some are unhappy to the point of wondering about quitting. That is what you should do if you find yourself in an unfun (and unlikely to change) D&D game. I don't want to say 'boot' the players really, since I don't know yet that anything they are doing is inherently wrong. I guess.... Invite them to find another group? Seems like a duller edge on it?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Really, don't play with people who you don't want to play with. I don't know what else to say?

D&D has a fun character building minigame. If you don't want to play with people who enjoy that game, take away PCs building characters, or don't play with them.

This is ... a good point. @overgeeked - here might be something to try.

I firmly believe that, as a social game, D&D has certain table norms. As such, it doesn't matter much how the "problem" manifests- whether it's the "ACTING, BRILLIANT!" or the "SUPER SMASH COMBO" player, it's whether the player isn't trying to jell within the confines of the group.

So how about this- maybe try running a few games with pre-gen characters. No real ability to "optimize" so no real worries about it. See how the games go!

Perhaps it would be helpful to see how the group just plays? It's a thought- something to try.

 

[Wolfram stout]

Player types. Actor. Storyteller. Instigator. Explorer. Power gamer. Etc. My priorities are story and immersion and character. My priorities do not mesh well with those focused on power gaming and combat. I enjoy a good combat, of course, otherwise I wouldn’t be playing D&D. But that’s not the most important part of the game.

Have you had any problems with other (non-combat) optimizers? The way 5e is done, it only takes a high Chr, a couple of skills and a couple of spells, and the Social game is monopolized. A high Wis with perception and/or investigation with maybe some physical skills (for movement) and the Exploration game is minimized.

In my experience, it is easy to have fun in combat even if you are not optimized, but it is much harder to contribute to the other areas if you are not built for it specifically.