I'm going to give this another shot and take a break. For those honestly engaging, thank you.
Either you 'ban' optimization, however that would look like, and you make one or some of the group unhappy by denying them the fun they find in D&D, you as you say let them stomp over everything doing nothing to fix or prevent it, in which case you and others are not having your fun, or you come to a joint conclusion that your table may not be the table for them. Maybe a different DM would produce different results of your group interaction, so you all can stay together, maybe not. Right now, with the information given, I don't see a great way for everyone to play with everything without SOMEONE having potentially less fun than the rest.
Exactly. Hence the problem. As mentioned it's a fallacy to assume optimizers don't care about character or story, but in this case it happens to be basically true. One cares a little, the other treats it like a video game.
So yeah. One solution could be that you make the optimizer(s) stop. That sounds like you have just reversed the problem, and made the game unfun for them at the expense of others. I am not saying that they should have more consideration. Only that it doesn't solve your current issue, just changes who is having fun. I can't speak for the others, but considering this thought, it could be why not a lot of offers of how to flat out stop it while keeping the group intact have been presented.
Unless you have a problem player(s). Then advice changes. That doesn't seem to be the case from what I have read though.
I generally expect gamers to have multiple avenues of fun. So if someone enjoys optimizing, fine as long as they can have fun with other aspects of the game. As long as the optimizing isn't too egregious, it's manageable. This is the corner of the edge case where the players don't seem to care about anything but "winning" and push for the most egregious combos. One of them tried to play a coffeelock. Their latest idea was a Twilight and Peace cleric combo.
Really, don't play with people who you don't want to play with. I don't know what else to say?
D&D has a fun character building minigame. If you don't want to play with people who enjoy that game, take away PCs building characters, or don't play with them.
There's a difference between enjoying the minigame...for example, I have a pile of characters waiting to use. I like making characters. Enjoying the minigame isn't optimizing. That's next level.
And if you hate people who do charop, don't play with people you hate. But please, try not to state they are bad people for having fun.
I don't hate either of them. I don't think they're bad people. I think they're incredibly rude. Because they're putting their fun over the fun and cohesion of the group. I'm used to players who are willing to switch game systems because a few players in the group aren't having fun. As an example, we were playing Dungeon World but one of the optimizers wasn't enjoying it because it was too light. So we switched to 5E. And now that we're playing that, he's refusing to stop optimizing despite being asked and having other players voice their problems. He cares more about being able to optimize his characters for his enjoyment than the enjoyment of anyone else at the table. People defending optimization jump on that and say it's not optimization that's the problem, but it is.
It sounded like some are unhappy to the point of wondering about quitting. That is what you should do if you find yourself in an unfun (and unlikely to change) D&D game. I don't want to say 'boot' the players really, since I don't know yet that anything they are doing is inherently wrong. I guess.... Invite them to find another group? Seems like a duller edge on it?
Optimizing isn't wrong...up to a point. Being the best rogue you can be is fine. Being the best whatever is fine. Seeking out all the broken combos that break the game is not okay. I don't even mind a bit of DPS optimization. But when one character's max damage crit deals less than half another characters regular damage every round...you get to watch the non-optimizer deflate in front of you. That's literally the opposite of what I'm here for.
I firmly believe that, as a social game, D&D has certain table norms. As such, it doesn't matter much how the "problem" manifests- whether it's the "ACTING, BRILLIANT!" or the "SUPER SMASH COMBO" player, it's whether the player isn't trying to jell within the confines of the group.
So how about this- maybe try running a few games with pre-gen characters. No real ability to "optimize" so no real worries about it. See how the games go!
I've suggested pre-gens. Surprise, the optimizers refuse.
Have you had any problems with other (non-combat) optimizers? The way 5e is done, it only takes a high Chr, a couple of skills and a couple of spells, and the Social game is monopolized. A high Wis with perception and/or investigation with maybe some physical skills (for movement) and the Exploration game is minimized.
Not really a problem. Most of those are generally niche spotlight roles. There's a party face, a party scout, etc. Combat is for everyone. Not just the optimizers. They hog so much of the spotlight that the rest of the group is bored. With combat being a bigger part of most D&D than the other pillars combined, it makes for a bad time. And no, increasing the non-combat time doesn't work because the two optimizers start whining about being bored. Have you played Shadowrun or heard the meme about the rest of the party going to get dinner while the decker does their thing? It's a hair's breadth from that.
In my experience, it is easy to have fun in combat even if you are not optimized, but it is much harder to contribute to the other areas if you are not built for it specifically.
If no one's optimized, everyone contributes roughly the same in combat. Out of combat you still have certain roles being filled by different characters. But that's generally fine as players who want to do those roles tend to make those characters. Combat is for everyone. Once optimization creeps in, it becomes an arms race. And again, I don't use optimization to mean having a high stat in your class's main stat or being trained in important, class-relevant skills.
Nobody's just the one thing though, right? Plenty of optimizers that I've gamed with are interested in acting or storytelling.
Until recently I'd agree. These two aren't. They don't care about the rest of the game. Like at all.
It's easier to change your own expectations and approach than it is to change other people. It's even easier to just dump players who aren't a fit for your game, depending on the social cost. Given that you have 7 players, I would say you could stand to lose a few anyway, unless you're running it like a player pool where you don't expect everyone to turn up each session.
As well, are these optimizers even having fun in your games? It seems to me they could go find games where their optimization would be welcome instead of seen as some kind of problem.
They're long-time friends. Hence the problem. If it were two randos our regular group picked up I'd have dropped them ages ago.
Finally, I'd be interested in hearing what specific problems have arisen. I've heard a lot of the usual generalities about optimizers, but can you give us specific instances where you were trying to accomplish something as a "storytelling DM" and an optimizer ruined it? If you have provided this, but I missed it, please let me know which posts it's in.
I'm resisting specifics as that will devolve the thread into an argument about specific builds rather than the general problem of optimization.
