Dealing with powergamers

[billd91]

I have a few suggestions:

1) If the powergamer is a threat at one level and the rest of the PCs are below him in that sense, make 2-tiered encounters. Throw something more appropriate to his challenge at him with some supporting mook-type creatures for the rest of the PCs.

2) For encounters that won't work with the 2-tier format because of plot constraints, don't advance the encounter's level or anything like that. Just give it a bunch more hit points for the powergamer to ablate (since I'm guessing that's what he's best at dealing with). The other PCs will still have a similar ability to affect the opponent (and have appropriate defenses) since the challenge is still appropriate for them, but it has a better chance of enduring contact with the powergamer.

3) Don't sweat the arrow creation too much once you figure out how many the PC can make nightly. Just stick to that basic formula and let her deal with it as an issue of resource management. Throw in some enemies with protection from arrows or have her swallowed whole by a purple worm, she'll learn to have a secondary weapon.

4) Related to #2 but a bit dirtier. Give all major encounters DR of #/non-powergamer. You have to be a non-powergamer to bypass the DR. Don't tell anyone at the table about this because it's fundamentally unfair but potentially effective. Just apply 5-15 points of DR against all of his attacks but don't against any other PC. The villain will simply appear to have tons of hit points but will be, in the end, just as vulnerable to the other PCs as he would have been without the powergamer's overbuilt character.

 

[Numion]

It's just the fact that they do these little things in order to continue using a tweaked out character without any side effects. Like I said, she uses way more arrows than an average players archer would because she can shoot arrows in melee combat rather than switching to her sword. I've never seen her use a melee weapon. It's not that she's using her bow 24/7 that bothers me, it's that she complains that she can "only" carry 60 arrows at once and rather than think about conserving her arrow use, they think up ways to always be stocked on arrows since a magical quiver of 60 arrows just isn't enough.

I've rarely seen a D&D character who's 'thing' is being an archer switching to melee. It happens, but not a lot. Likewise, after a certain level sorcerers don't bother carrying that trusty crossbow with them. Tricked out archers melee attacks are just so weak, like are a sorcerers non-spell attacks, that it's usually resting time when the archer runs out of arrows or the sorcerer runs out of spells. I just wonder why she doesn't carry 100s of arrows in her backpack, and then switch them into his quiver when it runs out.

I'd also add that making her own arrows is an excellent idea. My players rarely make anything themselves.

Further, I didn't see the powergamers idea to meet solar or God as that bad. You've got a PrC that requires the PC to do just that. So, isn't it better to see the God or solar for a good reason, instead of just popping in for the prereqs?

p.s. zero points for anyone who suggested "Well if he does that attack him with X!!!111!" While a DM can easily win any pissing contest, it's good form not to engage in one.

 

[WizarDru]

There are different issues at work here, some of which may be solvable problems and some of which may not. The solution depends on the how the DM and the players interact, and what each group is willing to accept.

An issue that the original poster has not actually stated but that I suspect is that the powergamer is consuming an inordinate amount of time with "Mother May I"s and specific rules requests and investigations in general. This originates in a difference in play-style and enjoyed game-type. It's quite possible that the player in question is much more concerned with the game as a tactical simulation while the DM is more concerned with the actual flow of play and views the game as more of an interactive adventure. The conflict comes from the differing expectations on both sides.

I had a similar situation. One of my former players was such a player. He spent a large amount of my time asking for specific rules, prestige classes, magic items and options. An inordinately larger amount than the other players...which began to become an issue for me, as the DM. I was spending more and more time (as we advanced in levels) focusing on that player and his character that I was spending less time on the other players and the game itself....to less perceived benefit on my part.

Throwing multi-level encounters or scaling encounters to meet the powergamer's level is, in effect, telling the other players that their contributions are less significant and that the powergamer dictates the form and level of play. It creates more work for the DM and can backfire terribly when one of the non-powergamer characters falls to an overpowered encounter that was ratcheted up solely to keep it challenging for the powergamer. On the other hand, the powergamer will become bored by interactions that don't interest him or combats that are far less challenging because of the DM's choice to not powergame.

Some of the suggestions here are tantamount to saying "If he powergames, you just powergame right back!", which to me isn't a valid strategy or choice. It creates a cold war with repressed feelings and continual stake risings that will sweep the entire game up in it's clutches. The other big reaction is "If he's powergaming, take the options away from everyone!", which in effect punishes the other players for not being as good at builds by removing their choices due to his actions.

How do you resolve such a problem? That really depends on the players and the DM and their preferences. It's a truism that if the DM isn't having fun, eventually neither will the players. Punishing the player isn't the answer, though. The real question is this: how do the other players perceive the issue and how do you feel about it? Do they find it frustrating that they can never be the hero of a combat because the powergamer is dominating...or do they not care, because they dominate during the RP portions or non-combat dungeon activities?

Identify the real, core issues: if you simply don't like his playstyle, then you may eventually reach an impasse. If you can reach a compromise position, then that's good...but be honest in your reasons and choices. If a player isn't enjoying the parts you enjoy strongly enough, then he'll realize it when you start tailoring the game to thwart him...and then no one is having fun and the game is effectively dead.

In my case, I began tailoring combats to be difficult for the most serious powergamer in the group. This had a lot of negative effects: characters who were more optimized for non-combat interactions felt neutered...more powerful creatures had higher SR, hit points, better saves and so forth. The powergamer didn't feel any more satisfied than earlier...but now detected the resentment that came from his playstyle dictating the playstyle for others. We were (and remain) friends and that wasn't good for any of us. Restricting options just for him would merely have led to a (correct) appearance of favoritism. Restricting options for everyone didn't make anyone happy. And since most of his powergaming came from finding loopholes in the core in the first place, this was barely a patch.

We eventually all agreed that he simply wasn't interested in playing the same game we were and he stopped attending that game, eventually ending up with a different group with a similar playstyle. Both groups benefited from this move, however drastic it may appear. I'm not suggesting you need to do this, but you and the players need to come to an accord concerning the issue before it becomes more significant than the game itself, IMHO.

 

[Nail]

Wait, you call wanting to use the crafting rules to make arrows powergaming?

...that was my first thought too.

 

[Veril]

Don't worry about the powergamers so much. Let them be power gamers, it's what they want. Don't screw their characters, that's petty.

You are the DM. You are in control. No player can get away with anything unles syou let him.

1) Anything from a source you don't have should be banned, and this should be retrospectivly. If you don't have the source you cannot check it out and make sure it gells with your campaign world. Insist on that rule. If you don't have the source players will abuse it against you.

2) when you change things then let people rechose things freely. Let them have a full character do-over if they want.

3) Players wanting PrC's? You don't have to let him have it. They are optional rules. If you are unhappy with that PRC then don't allow it in your campaign. Or make it hard to find someone who will train them in it. i.e he cannot take levels in "Supremem Master of the Universe" unless ha can find a tutor who will reveal the secrets to him. There's a whole lot of adventure lines in that. And much roleplaying possibilities.

4) Roleplaying and detective encounters. Power-gamers are just the same as anyone else, they have to use their minds. Puzzle dungeons with locks that need to be solved or riddles answered (provide 2 puzzles per PC to let them all work on stuff)

5) Capture the Players, strip them naked and put them in cells, being sold off as exotic gladiators. They all start out with nothing, good sequence in recovering all their kit. As to how they were captured, it all happened off camera, knockout gas and as a referee you ruled they fialed their saves.

6) Monsters have the stats you want them to have.

 

[Ozmar]

IMO, most of the suggestions you've received do not address the real problem, and thus, will not resolve it.

Is that something I should suck up & deal with or do I have a legitimate right to be annoyed about players doing that? It's just arrows afterall, but it's the player mindset that bothers me.

That's the crux of the issue. The player's mindset. You can't change that, and all your ideas about limiting options won't change it, either. The only person you can change is yourself. Similarly, the only people who can change their mindset is them, so you can either 1) change your expectations so their attitude doesn't bother you anymore, or 2) you can talk to them and hope that they are willing to and can change their attitudes, or 3) you can continue to have these problems. (Or some combination of these. Perhaps you can meet in some middle ground?)

Here is what I'm thinking...please, as a player, tell me what you'd say if your DM limited options that you were allowed to use before.

1. Nobody can use feats from any other book besides the PHB. Those who already chose feats from other sources can keep those feats.

2. You can pick PrC's from other sources, but if it has a requirement from something other than the PHB or DMG, you cannot use that PrC. (Is this too limiting? Maybe it could be a judgement call.)

3. The only book you can use spells from will be from the Spell Compendium. The limitations will be, no swift or immediate action spells, and you can't stack a spell from the SC with a spell from the PHB in order to boost a particular area (like stacking AC or attack bonuses). Arcane casters can keep the spells they already learned.

4. I'm excempt from these rules. My NPC's can use anything from any book I choose. That will help me make my NPC's different from the PC's since I need the variety to keep encounters different.

Speaking as a self-confessed powergamer (or at least, as one who has absolutely no issue with your player's described behaviors)...

The first three suck, but as a player, I recognize the DM's authority, and I'd obey the rules.

The last one is really unfair, IMO. Of course the DM can break the rules, but its particularly galling when the DM comes right out and rubs the player's nose in this fact.

You might consider changing your own expectations about the player's behavior, particularly as none of the scenarios you describe seem to be especially disrupting. So what if the archer wants to use her bow all the time? That hardly seems like "power gaming", IMHO. (And don't forget that bows are particularly susceptible to sunder attempts, and arrows can be negated by a strong wind.) And as for wanting to visit your god to become eligible for a prestige class, that sounds like he's trying to work his character build ideas into the storyline. Give him some credit. He doesn't sound like a complete munchkin. He sounds like he's trying to have fun within your game.

I think you can both work together on this to achieve your goals. But it won't help if either of you have a "my way or the highway" type of attitude. If you're both willing to change, change is possible.

Ozmar the Therapist

 

[Crust]

5) Capture the Players, strip them naked and put them in cells, being sold off as exotic gladiators. They all start out with nothing, good sequence in recovering all their kit. As to how they were captured, it all happened off camera, knockout gas and as a referee you ruled they fialed their saves.

6) Monsters have the stats you want them to have.

These last two ideas are exactly the kind of thing powergamers pounce on immediately. The DM is altering the reality of the game in order to hamstring players that are "too good."

Powergamers wait for this to happen, and they raise holy hell when it does.

 

[Greg K]

Talk to the problem player and tell him that he needs to change his style to fit the style that you want to run. If that does not work, remove him from the group.

 

[Greg K]

That's the crux of the issue. The player's mindset. You can't change that, and all your ideas about limiting options won't change it, either. The only person you can change is yourself. Similarly, the only people who can change their mindset is them, so you can either 1) change your expectations so their attitude doesn't bother you anymore, or 2) you can talk to them and hope that they are willing to and can change their attitudes, or 3) you can continue to have these problems. (Or some combination of these. Perhaps you can meet in some middle ground?)

4) If talking with them doesn't work, remove them from the game.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

This player complains that the powergamer doesn't participate with character interaction & always tries to tell players what to do in combat & what spells/feats/ect to pick during level progression.

This, combined with the way he seems to be running his wife's character, is the crux of the matter, I think. I've seen players like this, and they cause no end of grief. IME, they need to be the center of attention at all times, and other players exercising independence interferes with that. They see RPGs as single player, me-against-the-DM competitions, and the other players are just NPCs to them.

The powergaming is just a means to that end -- if they build the uber character, then they are always the one that swings the tide of battle, kills the BBEG, etc., and thus are the 'hero' of the story. If he's not an especially good role-player ("he can barely roleplay his PC asking a bartender for a drink") then he's going to resent that part of the game where someone else has the spotlight.

Frankly, I think in this case there's nothing you can do. He's going to have his wife on his side, so any attempt to 'correct' the behavior is going to be viewed as an attack, and she'll come to his defense. You run the real risk of splitting the group. I think I would start small and start taking steps to minimize his efforts to control the other characters/players. Stop him if he starts telling other people what to do in combat (you'll likely run into arguments about talking being a free action, though). Really put your foot down about influencing character development, and make it clear that unless the player specifically asks for his help, let them run their own character the way they see fit.

If you can break those habits, the power-gaming wont cease, but it won't have as disruptive affect on the others, and might get him to start looking at RPGs as a collaborative endeavor instead of a head-to-head confrontation.