Dealing with talk monkeys

[DracoSuave]

Your statement might not be a meaningless non sequitur if the diplomacy roll was actually being made during an encounter instead of to avoid it.

If you are in a position where diplomacy (or sneak) is used with a real and important consequence, that IS an encounter. You cannot use diplomacy to -avoid- an encounter, doing so -makes- it an encounter.

You can have encounters that lead to avoiding other encounters, but that is not the same thing at all.

So by that token, you -can't- have a single diplomacy avoid an encounter. But you can (and often -should-) have choices the players decide to make change the tone or direction of an encounter.

Also, if a skill challenge attempts to replace a combat encounter -completely- then, unless the encounter was 3 monsters of level x, a complexity 3 encounter of level x is not an equivalent replacement.



Lastly, whoever said there's no difference between a single skill roll and a skill challenge should look at combat. That's a lot of dicerolling too. Could that be replaced by a single d20 roll? Yes. -Should- it? No. Skill challenges are strategic, just not in a tactical combat sense. But roleplay can be a very strategic and engaging persuit, and the DM should reward/punish accordingly

 

[Klaus]

Making a single skill check and assuming you can talk your way out of battle isn't "using their head" to get around anything.

Now, if he launched into a lengthy, in-character attempt at persuasion, that check could (and probably should) have been the start of a skill challenge that could, if successful, have avoided the battle.

But claiming that saying "I use Diplomacy" and rolling a single d20 should accomplish that? No, I don't think so.

It's also worth noting that it is not railroading for the DM to decide, in advance, "Diplomacy and the like aren't going to work in this encounter." Just like some encounters cannot be solved by combat, and some cannot be solved by, say, Athletics.

No, you don't want to do it all the time, but sometimes? Absolutely.

Now, if the DM decides "The PCs can only succeed by taking specific actions X, Y, and Z, in that order, and I won't even consider other options," then you're getting into potential railroad territory. But there's nothing wrong with deciding that approach A and B won't work here, but C--and anything from D onward that I haven't thought of--might.

As usual, our resident Rodent of the Night hits the spot. Well done, sir!

 

[ExploderWizard]

In general that's good advice, and what I would do, but as I said in the original post, my main issue is when I want them to go ahead and fight in among the spinning blades and such.

This is generally the problem I have with scene setting, staging, and far too many assumptions about PC actions. The players are most satisfied when thier decisions matter to the overall situation. Does this mean that a high level skill monkey should just "win" by pushing his 1 trick button? No.

Players who try and find creative ways to solve problems beyond killing and looting shouldn't be denied opportunities because the DM has set up a cool fight scene and wants the PC's embroiled in a certain situation.

As a DM, I see a diplomacy attempt as an opportunity for me to do some roleplaying and see how fast the players can think on thier feet. I like the concept of "everybody wants something". The diplomacy roll might get hostilities temporarily suspended and the NPCs/monsters to listen to offers but nobody gets something for nothing. Maybe the monsters have something that they really want and the PC's might not be seen passing by if said something were brought to them, wink wink. Now the players have a choice- do as instructed, leave, or initiate hostility.

If combat cannot be won with a single roll than neither should diplomacy. Diplomacy does work wonders as a gateway to more options than charge.

 

[Obryn]

Players who try and find creative ways to solve problems beyond killing and looting shouldn't be denied opportunities because the DM has set up a cool fight scene and wants the PC's embroiled in a certain situation.

I agree! But I don't see anything wrong with some fights that you can't talk your way out of, either.

-O

 

[Regicide]

If you are in a position where diplomacy (or sneak) is used with a real and important consequence, that IS an encounter. You cannot use diplomacy to -avoid- an encounter, doing so -makes- it an encounter.

If surprise and initiative haven't happened, it's not a combat encounter. Pg266 PHB. Rolling diplomacy doesn't make it one.

If there aren't consequences to the action, diplomacy won't be rolled. Rolling a skill doesn't suddenly make something an encounter. The rule of thumb of 1 encounter per hour would be completely blown out of the water. I could quite easily see getting 2 levels a night if you decide to turn every skill check into a skill challenge.

So by that token, you -can't- have a single diplomacy avoid an encounter.

Um, you can. What stops you? Just because it's diplomacy it's the whipping boy? Stealth would be a valid way, invisibility would be a valid way, various other powers would be a valid way but diplomacy and that with a power tacked on wouldn't? .

Lastly, whoever said there's no difference between a single skill roll and a skill challenge should look at combat.

Are you seriously comparing combat which has thousands of pages of powers for, requires a map, takes miniatures and various aids like cards and markers to skill challenges? Good grief.

 

[Obryn]

Um, you can. What stops you? Just because it's diplomacy it's the whipping boy? Stealth would be a valid way, invisibility would be a valid way, various other powers would be a valid way but diplomacy and that with a power tacked on wouldn't? .

Language, man. Calm down.

Why should a single die roll be a superior method of resolving diplomacy like this? What's wrong with a skill challenge, used properly? They have a number of benefits, some of which I outlined above.

Stealth and invisibility could certainly let you avoid the encounter, although in both cases the slow guy in armor would be your albatross. So could flying overhead. This isn't about them, though - it's about diplomacy in particular, and an attempt to resolve an encounter with it. This isn't "Shhhh! Hobgoblins! Let's sneak around them!" (although I should note, that could be an awesome skill challenge of its own!) This is "Hello, kind Hobgoblin, Sir! Mayhap you could allow me access to your fortress along with my heavily-armed companions."

This is pretty much a case of DM judgment. If my players avoid the encounter entirely, then there's no encounter. But if they engage with the hobgoblins, there's an encounter, and I think it should be a lot more interesting than a single die roll.

-O

 

[Turtlejay]

This isn't "Shhhh! Hobgoblins! Let's sneak around them!" (although I should note, that could be an awesome skill challenge of its own!) This is "Hello, kind Hobgoblin, Sir! Mayhap you could allow me access to your fortress along with my heavily-armed companions."

-O

I loled.

To be honest, that is the least Troll-like I have seen Regicide in the past couple days. Must be losing his touch.

Any of these skill challenges sound fun. I would rather fight hobgoblins in a battlefield of whirling blade traps, though. Who wouldn't?!

Jay

 

[DracoSuave]

If surprise and initiative haven't happened, it's not a combat encounter. Pg266 PHB. Rolling diplomacy doesn't make it one.

Very good. Now notice I did not use the term 'combat encounter' but the word 'encounter.'

There's a difference there. One is the subset of the other. The surprise and initiative transform an encounter to a combat encounter. But they are not required for something to be an encounter.

If there aren't consequences to the action, diplomacy won't be rolled. Rolling a skill doesn't suddenly make something an encounter. The rule of thumb of 1 encounter per hour would be completely blown out of the water. I could quite easily see getting 2 levels a night if you decide to turn every skill check into a skill challenge.

No, rolling a skill doesn't make something an encounter. Being presented with a definate and non-trivial obstacle that the characters must find a way to overcome to progress, makes it an encounter. That encounter might be solved through skillcraft or combat, or just roleplay; that does not make it any less of an encounter.

Um, you can. What stops you? Just because it's diplomacy it's the whipping boy? Stealth would be a valid way, invisibility would be a valid way, various other powers would be a valid way but diplomacy and that with a power tacked on wouldn't? .

Invisibility isn't as good as you think it is. It only offers total concealment and makes you unseen. It isn't the same as undetectable. So unless you made a Stealth check, your position is easily discerned simply by dint of you not bothering to hide your presence. (PHB2 stealth rules)

And a single Stealth roll does not override an encounter either. So you make a stealth roll, and are not seen. Gratz. Now you have four other party members that need to be hidden.

Now, that's five rolls, with a single failure meaning the combat encounter is not avoided. Hmmm. Seems like a variant of the skill challenge to me!

Your examples fail. Can you please clear this point up with something a lot more realistic and applicable?

Are you seriously comparing combat which has thousands of pages of powers for, requires a map, takes miniatures and various aids like cards and markers to skill challenges? Good grief.

No. I'm comparing the fact that combat is a more complicated mechanic than a single dice roll but could be resolved with a single dice roll, implying that doing a single dice roll to replace combat is not a good idea. Thus, by analogy, a single die roll is not necessarily superior to a more complex system for the purposes of drama and roleplay. And therefore, a skill challenge might be superior to a single die.

I thought that was obvious, and didn't need to be explained. I apologize if the intent of that was unclear.

Diplomacy is usually used in a skill challenge that requires a number of successes, but the DM might call for a Diplomacy check in other situations.

I love it when reading the skill itself gives you insights into how the skill is properly used.

 

[Garthanos]

Weirdly I find the title of this thread ... insulting ... and its actually about dice monkeys..... hoping one die will do it all.

The more bigoted angels of the prophecy movies called humans talking monkeys.

 

[DracoSuave]

Weirdly I find the title of this thread ... insulting ... and its actually about dice monkeys..... hoping one die will do it all.

The more bigoted angels of the prophecy movies called humans talking monkeys.

Christopher Walken wins.

And admit it, monkeys are awesome.