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Dealing with trouble players?

vagabundo

Adventurer
First: your not alone.

Second: They are being teenagers and doing what they find fun, but the disruption needs to stop. They may become constructive players at some stage, but for the moment unless they cut the crap they should not be invited back.

Talk to your other players and ask their opinions, if they feel the disruptor's should leave and that your games would be more fun then that is it all sorted.

Third: Stick with it, keep trying to get groups together even if this one falls apart, invite friends and family. My group has been stable for the past 8 years now and it is running better than ever, before that I had players come and go over the years.
 

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roguerouge

First Post
Well, if everyone's going to be MATURE about it, then I guess I'll be the one that offers some immature advice.

If the DM won't bring them into line, and reasoning with them hasn't worked, only one thing will: retaliation. Just don't get caught.

In combats, make sure to let them hang in the wind. Look busy doing something else, but always prioritize another task over saving them. When they're outnumbered, finish with the guy you're fighting with; after all, getting rid of enemies is good tactics. Take risky maneuvers to help them. When they're being grappled, don't rush to their rescue. Shoot arrows into the grapple and shrug your shoulders if you happen to hit them. Hey--you're trying! When targeting spells, be overly willing to trust in their ability to avoid damage; after all, their ability scores are so high you thought they'd be able to dodge. And you should slack: let them be the morons to face the BBEG in melee. Spend some time finding the perfect place to snipe from while these morons get their clock cleaned.

Look: you're dealing with cheaters and bullies. You have to stand up to them. But if no one will stand up to them with you, don't walk away and don't get mad. Get even.

This has been your Neutral Evil advice for the thread.
 

Wootz

First Post
Okay... let's try this again.

People, you are not required to play or set in with ANY group. The fact that you have idiots who play in this group and everyone is fine with it... then leave the group.

You are NOT REQUIRED TO PLAY with ANY GROUP. If your whole group is full of spineless nothings surrounded by sweet delightful idiots who only gain enjoyment by doing the things you say... then yes, give up the game.

Also, you can make a diplomacy check with a dragon; it is possible, just difficult.

Sounds like the group is full of people who are ~ 12-17, marginalized, and will become the players we don't want at the table when they become adults. So here's your solution:

Form a group. Meet some people... make somebody sit down and try your game out. Run modules, then if you feel you have a good idea for a setting thing about it, debate it, then work on it. Don't fall for tropes and idiocy, and plow forward and make something of yourself as a DM. Then, hopefully, some decent player you've scouted will DM.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
I forgot to say that the people who really want to play this game find the behavior annoying. And what's left of the problem players is one person, since the others were relatively easy to deal with (surprisingly, some people actually can listen to what you have to say). I'm not looking for a new group entirely, because I like the people in mine. Just that everyone gets pissed off at the players who act stupid (which is now just one player) and then the mood of the game is killed, and then it's just an angry board game. I've been thinking about removing him from the game completely, and I think vagabundo has a good way of going about this. Only problem is he's the in-one-ear-out-the-other kind of guy. He showed up last weekend at my house in the middle of the night and sleeping over (because he told his parents not to come back for him) without so much as a phone call after he was specifically told not to show. Several people in my group don't even want to play anymore because of him. And I do want to keep my group intact, which is why it's become such a problem.


(yes I DM)
 

justanobody

Banned
Banned
I forgot to say that the people who really want to play this game find the behavior annoying. And what's left of the problem players is one person, since the others were relatively easy to deal with (surprisingly, some people actually can listen to what you have to say). I'm not looking for a new group entirely, because I like the people in mine. Just that everyone gets pissed off at the players who act stupid (which is now just one player) and then the mood of the game is killed, and then it's just an angry board game. I've been thinking about removing him from the game completely, and I think vagabundo has a good way of going about this. Only problem is he's the in-one-ear-out-the-other kind of guy. He showed up last weekend at my house in the middle of the night and sleeping over (because he told his parents not to come back for him) without so much as a phone call after he was specifically told not to show. Several people in my group don't even want to play anymore because of him. And I do want to keep my group intact, which is why it's become such a problem.


(yes I DM)

If you got someone just coming over to stay at your house that age, you may need more help with the person than just telling him to get out of the D&D game.
 

Wootz

First Post
Well, if everyone's going to be MATURE about it, then I guess I'll be the one that offers some immature advice.

If the DM won't bring them into line, and reasoning with them hasn't worked, only one thing will: retaliation. Just don't get caught.

In combats, make sure to let them hang in the wind. Look busy doing something else, but always prioritize another task over saving them. When they're outnumbered, finish with the guy you're fighting with; after all, getting rid of enemies is good tactics. Take risky maneuvers to help them. When they're being grappled, don't rush to their rescue. Shoot arrows into the grapple and shrug your shoulders if you happen to hit them. Hey--you're trying! When targeting spells, be overly willing to trust in their ability to avoid damage; after all, their ability scores are so high you thought they'd be able to dodge. And you should slack: let them be the morons to face the BBEG in melee. Spend some time finding the perfect place to snipe from while these morons get their clock cleaned.

Look: you're dealing with cheaters and bullies. You have to stand up to them. But if no one will stand up to them with you, don't walk away and don't get mad. Get even.

This has been your Neutral Evil advice for the thread.
Oh god this would be funnier than hell! But, I DM and if I killed his character he'd just complain till he can rez it, or make a new one. What really pisses me off is that I'll be storytelling (what DM's normally do) and after spending hours writing and editing a good storyline for next weeks game session, I'll be reading from what I wrote to set the PCs on their next great quest to find the truth, only to have him yell "just hurry up already!" every 3 seconds. Then the storyline is so rushed that it feels like a B grade 80's chinese wire-fu movie, and the dungeons and temples and all that other fun crap become nothing more than a grid with little metal miniatures hopping around it.
 

Wootz

First Post
If someone is being a problem, you inform them that their behavior is a detraction from the game and inform them they are leaving. If you are not the host of the game, you probably need to discuss the issue with the host first. If you play in a public environment, you tell the person in charge of the environment about the individuals that are harassing you.

If you feel ANY hesitation to do these things you must read this. [sblock=Five Geek Social Fallacies]
Five Geek Social Fallacies

Within the constellation of allied hobbies and subcultures collectively known as geekdom, one finds many social groups bent under a crushing burden of dysfunction, social drama, and general interpersonal wack-ness. It is my opinion that many of these never-ending crises are sparked off by an assortment of pernicious social fallacies -- ideas about human interaction which spur their holders to do terrible and stupid things to themselves and to each other.

Social fallacies are particularly insidious because they tend to be exaggerated versions of notions that are themselves entirely reasonable and unobjectionable. It's difficult to debunk the pathological fallacy without seeming to argue against its reasonable form; therefore, once it establishes itself, a social fallacy is extremely difficult to dislodge. It's my hope that drawing attention to some of them may be a step in the right direction.

I want to note that I'm not trying to say that every geek subscribes to every one of the fallacies I outline here; every individual subscribes to a different set of ideas, and adheres to any given idea with a different amount of zeal.

In any event, here are five geek social fallacies I've identified. There are likely more.
Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil

GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

In its non-pathological form, GSF1 is benign, and even commendable: it is long past time we all grew up and stopped with the junior high popularity games. However, in its pathological form, GSF1 prevents its carrier from participating in -- or tolerating -- the exclusion of anyone from anything, be it a party, a comic book store, or a web forum, and no matter how obnoxious, offensive, or aromatic the prospective excludee may be.

As a result, nearly every geek social group of significant size has at least one member that 80% of the members hate, and the remaining 20% merely tolerate. If GSF1 exists in sufficient concentration -- and it usually does -- it is impossible to expel a person who actively detracts from every social event. GSF1 protocol permits you not to invite someone you don't like to a given event, but if someone spills the beans and our hypothetical Cat Piss Man invites himself, there is no recourse. You must put up with him, or you will be an Evil Ostracizer and might as well go out for the football team.

This phenomenon has a number of unpleasant consequences. For one thing, it actively hinders the wider acceptance of geek-related activities: I don't know that RPGs and comics would be more popular if there were fewer trolls who smell of cheese hassling the new blood, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. For another, when nothing smacking of social selectiveness can be discussed in public, people inevitably begin to organize activities in secret. These conspiracies often lead to more problems down the line, and the end result is as juvenile as anything a seventh-grader ever dreamed of.
Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am

The origins of GSF2 are closely allied to the origins of GSF1. After being victimized by social exclusion, many geeks experience their "tribe" as a non-judgmental haven where they can take refuge from the cruel world outside.

This seems straightforward and reasonable. It's important for people to have a space where they feel safe and accepted. Ideally, everyone's social group would be a safe haven. When people who rely too heavily upon that refuge feel insecure in that haven, however, a commendable ideal mutates into its pathological form, GSF2.

Carriers of GSF2 believe that since a friend accepts them as they are, anyone who criticizes them is not their friend. Thus, they can't take criticism from friends -- criticism is experienced as a treacherous betrayal of the friendship, no matter how inappropriate the criticized behavior may be.

Conversely, most carriers will never criticize a friend under any circumstances; the duty to be supportive trumps any impulse to point out unacceptable behavior.

GSF2 has extensive consequences within a group. Its presence in substantial quantity within a social group vastly increases the group's conflict-averseness. People spend hours debating how to deal with conflicts, because they know (or sometimes merely fear) that the other person involved is a GSF2 carrier, and any attempt to confront them directly will only make things worse. As a result, people let grudges brew much longer than is healthy, and they spend absurd amounts of time deconstructing their interpersonal dramas in search of a back way out of a dilemma.

Ironically, GSF2 carriers often take criticism from coworkers, supervisors, and mentors quite well; those individuals aren't friends, and aren't expected to accept the carrier unconditionally.
Geek Social Fallacy #3: Friendship Before All

Valuing friendships is a fine and worthy thing. When taken to an unhealthy extreme, however, GSF3 can manifest itself.

Like GSF2, GSF3 is a "friendship test" fallacy: in this case, the carrier believes that any failure by a friend to put the interests of the friendship above all else means that they aren't really a friend at all. It should be obvious that there are a million ways that this can be a problem for the carrier's friends, but the most common one is a situation where friends' interests conflict -- if, for example, one friend asks you to keep a secret from another friend. If both friends are GSF3 carriers, you're screwed -- the first one will feel betrayed if you reveal the secret, and the other will feel betrayed if you don't. Your only hope is to keep the second friend from finding out, which is difficult if the secret in question was a party that a lot of people went to.

GSF3 can be costly for the carrier as well. They often sacrifice work, family, and romantic obligations at the altar of friendship. In the end, the carrier has a great circle of friends, but not a lot else to show for their life. This is one reason why so many geek circles include people whose sole redeeming quality is loyalty: it's hard not to honor someone who goes to such lengths to be there for a friend, however destructive they may be in other respects.

Individual carriers sometimes have exceptions to GSF3, which allow friends to place a certain protected class of people or things above friendship in a pinch: "significant others" is a common protected class, as is "work".
Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship Is Transitive

Every carrier of GSF4 has, at some point, said:

"Wouldn't it be great to get all my groups of friends into one place for one big happy party?!"

If you groaned at that last paragraph, you may be a recovering GSF4 carrier.

GSF4 is the belief that any two of your friends ought to be friends with each other, and if they're not, something is Very Wrong.

The milder form of GSF4 merely prevents the carrier from perceiving evidence to contradict it; a carrier will refuse to comprehend that two of their friends (or two groups of friends) don't much care for each other, and will continue to try to bring them together at social events. They may even maintain that a full-scale vendetta is just a misunderstanding between friends that could easily be resolved if the principals would just sit down to talk it out.

A more serious form of GSF4 becomes another "friendship test" fallacy: if you have a friend A, and a friend B, but A & B are not friends, then one of them must not really be your friend at all. It is surprisingly common for a carrier, when faced with two friends who don't get along, to simply drop one of them.

On the other side of the equation, a carrier who doesn't like a friend of a friend will often get very passive-aggressive and covertly hostile to the friend of a friend, while vigorously maintaining that we're one big happy family and everyone is friends.

GSF4 can also lead carriers to make inappropriate requests of people they barely know -- asking a friend's roommate's ex if they can crash on their couch, asking a college acquaintance from eight years ago for a letter of recommendation at their workplace, and so on. If something is appropriate to ask of a friend, it's appropriate to ask of a friend of a friend.

Arguably, Friendster was designed by a GSF4 carrier.
Geek Social Fallacy #5: Friends Do Everything Together

GSF5, put simply, maintains that every friend in a circle should be included in every activity to the full extent possible. This is subtly different from GSF1; GSF1 requires that no one, friend or not, be excluded, while GSF5 requires that every friend be invited. This means that to a GSF5 carrier, not being invited to something is intrinsically a snub, and will be responded to as such.

This is perhaps the least destructive of the five, being at worst inconvenient. In a small circle, this is incestuous but basically harmless. In larger groups, it can make certain social events very difficult: parties which are way too large for their spaces and restaurant expeditions that include twenty people and no reservation are far from unusual.

When everyone in a group is a GSF5 carrier, this isn't really a problem. If, however, there are members who aren't carriers, they may want occasionally to have smaller outings, and these can be hard to arrange without causing hurt feelings and social drama. It's hard to explain to a GSF5 carrier that just because you only wanted to have dinner with five other people tonight, it doesn't mean that your friendship is in terrible danger.

For some reason, many GSF5 carriers are willing to make an exception for gender-segregated events. I don't know why.
Interactions

Each fallacy has its own set of unfortunate consequences, but frequently they become worse in interaction. GSF4 often develops into its more extreme form when paired with GSF5; if everyone does everything together, it's much harder to maintain two friends who don't get along. One will usually fall by the wayside.

Similarly, GSF1 and GSF5 can combine regrettably: when a failure to invite someone is equivalent to excluding them, you can't even get away with not inviting Captain Halitosis along on the road trip. GSF3 can combine disastrously with the other "friendship test" fallacies; carriers may insist that their friends join them in snubbing someone who fails the test, which occasionally leads to a chain reaction which causes the carrier to eventually reject all of their friends. This is not healthy; fortunately, severe versions of GSF3 are rare.
Consequences

Dealing with the effects of social fallacies is an essential part of managing one's social life among geeks, and this is much easier when one is aware of them and can identify which of your friends carry which fallacies. In the absence of this kind of awareness, three situations tend to arise when people come into contact with fallacies they don't hold themselves.

Most common is simple conflict and hurt feelings. It's hard for people to talk through these conflicts because they usually stem from fairly primal value clashes; a GSF3 carrier may not even be able to articulate why it was such a big deal that their non-carrier friend blew off their movie night.

Alternately, people often take on fallacies that are dominant in their social circle. If you join a group of GSF5 carriers, doing everything together is going to become a habit; if you spend enough time around GSF1 carriers, putting up with trolls is going to seem normal.

Less commonly, people form a sort of counter-fallacy which I call "Your Feelings, Your Problem". YFYP carriers deal with other people's fallacies by ignoring them entirely, in the process acquiring a reputation for being charmingly tactless. Carriers tend to receive a sort of exemption from the usual standards: "that's just Dana", and so on. YFYP has its own problems, but if you would rather be an :):):):):):):) than angstful, it may be the way to go. It's also remarkably easy to pull off in a GSF1-rich environment.
What Can I Do?

As I've said, I think that the best way to deal with social fallacies is to be aware of them, in yourself and in others. In yourself, you can try to deal with them; in others, understanding their behavior usually makes it less aggravating.

Social fallacies don't make someone a bad person; on the contrary, they usually spring from the purest motives. But I believe they are worth deconstructing; in the long run, social fallacies cost a lot of stress and drama, to no real benefit. You can be tolerant without being indiscriminate, and you can be loyal to friends without being compulsive about it.

Hey, Are You Talking About Me?
If I know you, yeah, probably I am. It doesn't mean I don't love you; most of us carry a few fallacies. Myself, I struggle with GSF 1 and 2, and I used to have a bad case of 4 until a series of disastrous parties dispelled it.

I haven't used any examples that refer to specific situations, if it has you worried. Any resemblances to geeks living or dead are coincidental. [/sblock]
A little more than half of these characterize what is the "problem player"

He refuses to go away because friends are supposed to be stuck together until they die, which sucks because he's not exactly the kind of person I can spend more than a few hours with. He doesn't respond well to criticism either, and generally speaking calls anyone that makes a useful observation of his behavior a bad friend, or not a friend at all.
 

Loonook

First Post
A little more than half of these characterize what is the "problem player"

He refuses to go away because friends are supposed to be stuck together until they die, which sucks because he's not exactly the kind of person I can spend more than a few hours with. He doesn't respond well to criticism either, and generally speaking calls anyone that makes a useful observation of his behavior a bad friend, or not a friend at all.

Don't be useful... just break him. Trust me, it sucks for him to have to go through people who just brutalize him, but being broken of these idiotic habits now will make him a better person down the line where he will look back and laugh.

I was someone who had some issues with social interactions (you can carry books around with you when you're forced to move every week or so, not so much with friends). . . I am still acerbic to the point of being able to singe the whiskers. However, someone broke me of being an idiot, and I have passed the savings down throughout the years. Yeah, he'll cry and pule and moan, but it's a defense mechanism and needs to be removed.

Friends will disappear, but it doesn't help for you to let him hold on because you feel bad otherwise.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

If the guy is not someone that you want to hang out with outside of gaming, then don't game with him. Tell him to get out. Call his parents and tell them to come and pick him up. If it comes to it, have your parents (I don't know if you still live at home, but it seems likely, given the age ranges listed) call his parents and tell them that he is no longer welcome at your house.

Sure... Things might be a little awkward and tense while (and shortly after) you bring down the ban hammer on him, but once he is gone, you will have all the time in the world to enjoy your gaming without such a disruptive and annoying presence.
 

Wolf88

First Post
yes, i think that a serious banhammer is in order too... friendship blah blah blah he is a nuisance, not a friend.

IT'S HAMMER TIME!

(sorry couldn't resist! ^^"""")
 

JackSmithIV

First Post
Age has nothing to do with it whatsoever. My youngest players are sometimes my absolute best. I remember being 11 and DMing games with friends who were excellent. They loved the game, never broke rules, were very mature, were excellent RPers, and still hold great memories of our games. Let's not start showing age discrimination, lest we offend.

@Loonook: "Breaking" someone is never the answer. People who feel the need to "break" others are often the problem. In fact, gamers from older generations feeling the need to "break" members of younger generations is a huge cause of the generation divide. One of my writers runs the RPG society at Princeton University, and he says that the younger players are far more mature, but the older players imposing their style of rules-intensive min-maxing of characters and situations is often game breaking. When the younger players ask these other players to step off, they get "broken". This kind of attitude will drive away the younger generation, and then the hobby is screwed. Besides, it's just immature.

You wanna deal with problem players who are immature? Treat them like adults. Have an adult conversation. They can't handle it, you deal with them like adults, and politely ask them to leave.
 
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