Death and Retirement

[Patlin]

I don't see anything prohibiting that, subject to judge approval, however IMO, it's an item that shouldn't be showing up as treasure for anything less than an el10 encounter, and even then it's going to be the bulk of the treasure recieved.

Also, if you include a scroll as treasure because someone specifically needs it, then it starts to look like circumvention of rules.

When things happen in my campaign because I need them to in order to continue the story, I call that "plot." Plot is generally non-random. My games are PC-centric, and when the PCs die unexpectedly, it screws up my plot.

As to treasure, I generally try to make the whole adventure balance out to the recomended wealth level, rather than individual combats. One thing I'll sometimes do is to throw in a lot of low to no treasure combats followed by a big score. Rest assured, if I throw in a scroll it means the party is going to be down a bunch of treasure they would otherwise have received. There are a lot of ways to impose the pain of a death penalty without destroying a character with whom the poor player has an emotional attachment.

 

[Knight Otu]

The current draft can still allows resurrections outside of Sanctus. But they'll propably come at some... cost. Most likely at least a vow of silence about the resurrection. In the current case, it might be possible that the Fairy King has some ability to help out - for a prize later to be collected. Whether I would want to be beholden to the Fairy King or not...
Of course, that should not become an easy cop out. No insane mountain hermit who conveniently can resurrect people, living near the Keep of Bloodstained Dreams for my adventure should I happen to kill a character in Dance of Souls, for example.

 

[IcyCool]

Hey folks, sorry I haven't been able to weigh in on this, I've been on vacation.

On the death of my character, Gorefoot:
I'm not losing any sleep over it. If Patlin feels really bad about it, I'm fine with him working something out for resurrection. Or, if the other players in the adventure wish to quest to bring him back, I'm good with that too. And lastly, if Gorefoot is to serve as an example of mortality in LEW, I ok with that. His death was like his life, nasty, brutish, and short. That being said, it would be nice to have a LEW ruling on death/retirement/resurrection. If I make a new character, is it from the start? Is Knight Otu's proposal of no benefit until 4th level or higher in effect? For reference, Gorefoot was a 2nd level barbarian, possibly becoming third after this adventure.

As I said in the Faerie Woods thread, I've got a couple of character concepts that I'd be happy to try out, if Gorefoot is truly dead.

I like Creamsteak's suggestion of the Temple of Hyrag in Sanctus. I think that raising/resurrecting should only be done as part of an adventure, and adjudicated by a GM. I don't like the suggestion of going into debt to cover the costs, unless that is via a GM decision (i.e., Baron Whosit hires a party of adventurers to do his bidding. One of them dies, he pays their resurrection costs, and now they owe him.) Now, that should be regulated, but that's what judges are for. If DM Bob continually has NPC's pay for a particular character's raising, a judge should step in.

 

[IcyCool]

The current draft can still allows resurrections outside of Sanctus. But they'll propably come at some... cost. Most likely at least a vow of silence about the resurrection. In the current case, it might be possible that the Fairy King has some ability to help out - for a prize later to be collected. Whether I would want to be beholden to the Fairy King or not...

You know, it occurs to me that the Fairy King wanted "an interesting guest for his court." What's more interesting than a Gnome berserker? Why, a Gnome Berserker's Ghost!

 

[azmodean]

Just for the record, my stance:
Ressurection-type spells available at a "special place" which requires an adventure to reach, this can be either the place as laid out in the proposal, or a place of the adventure DM's choosing as to not disrupt their adventure more than is called for. Said spells are provided at SRD cost.
Said spells would also be available from PCs once they reach an appropriate level. (9th level cleric, 7th level druid, it'll be a while) (As a side note, my ranger would love to be reincarnated)
Ressurection penalties as set out in the SRD spell descriptions should stand.

Obviously, I have an opinion as to how dangerous adventures could be, but that sort of thing is much more difficult to codify, so I can't really make it clear.

An observation, LEW has been running for two years according to El Jefe, and this is the first death on record. It seems to me that while this is a rather contentious issue, it hasn't and probably won't come up that often. I feel that the enhancement to the "feel" of the game knowing how difficult a ressurection would be to obtain far outweighs the danger of losing a character. In a combat one of my characters was just in, he was seriously considering retreat, but it wasn't an option. This is the first time I've been in that situation in a D&D game, partly because I was aware that the character would probably not be coming back if he died there. I think that is a good thing. (Side note: I think DMs of low level parties should keep a viable retreat option available, especially on more challenging encounters. Higher level parties should be able to make their own retreat option)

 

[Patlin]

You know, it occurs to me that the Fairy King wanted "an interesting guest for his court." What's more interesting than a Gnome berserker? Why, a Gnome Berserker's Ghost!

If you are interested in something like this for Gorefoot, that's certainly OK with me. Perhaps Gorefoot could retire as a guardian spirit dedicated to containing the evil fey within the Faerie Woods? He could even help convince Sir Ishmael to leave incredibly, absurdly deadly fey inside containment fields and of no threat to anyone outside them alone...

 

[Rystil Arden]

Azmodean--tangential note: if it was my combat that didn't seem to have an escape, you could have run to the sides like the hobgoblins did when the orcs first appeared.

 

[Patlin]

(Side note: I think DMs of low level parties should keep a viable retreat option available, especially on more challenging encounters. Higher level parties should be able to make their own retreat option)

Your high level character turns a corner and encounters a Bodak, which he could easilly dispatch with his hard won might. Unfortunately, you don't win initiative. More unfortunately, you roll a 1 on your saving throw.

Even for high level characters, death can be sudden, ugly, and offer no oportunity to retreat.

I'd be more comfortable with a death penalty if the rules made dying a bit more difficult. If I were to create a creature like the Bodak, it's death gaze would knock the victim into a coma, a state from which they would die without treatment in 5 rounds, and a state which would be difficult to revive them from even with magic. Short of rewriting the game, though, I think we're stuck with the solution written into the rules. It's just not all that difficult in D&D to ressurect people, and we shouldn't change that in LEW unless we want to change a thousand other things, too.

 

[azmodean]

RA: I could be wrong, but with the knowledge that one more throwing axe would most likely do me in, running a short distance from the combat didn't seem a viable option. I'm not sure how to make retreat viable in that situation, but it certainly seemed that the only option oce we had engaged was to either win or die. Especially with the orcs appearing before we had finished off the renders.

LEW doesn't make it harder to get ressurected. In a "normal" campaign you are still limited in your ability to be ressurected by the availability of high-level casters and the cost of having the spell cast. As far as I know, finding a high-level spellcaster is the only issue under consideration, and the proposal is to add something to the setting to allow easier access.

Concerning your example, if a party encounters a Bodak, I would hope they are high enough level to ressurect the target of the gaze attack themselves. What is a party without a 9+ lvl cleric or 7+ lvl druid doing on a chaotic evil-aligned plane anyway? Or even worse, fighting someone with the capability to create and/or summon a Bodak?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Azmodean: A sprint would have taken you into the bushes to the side, and remember, the group chose the option which left the left availability for retreat: attacking both sides in an already-ongoing fight.

As for resurrection, I'm not sure I agree necessarily that this proposal will be making it easier. As you noted, availability of the high-level caster is the key, but what if the GM has a high-level caster around in the nearby town? Maybe there's a 9th-level cleric in the local village. It seems like this proposal would make that a no-no.