Death penalties - what is too steep?

The first thing I thought of when I saw this discussion was the Legend of the 5 Rings RPG (d10). There is absolutely no resurrection in that game, unless you cound animating zombies. The game is also much more lethal at all levels than D&D. At the same time, an honorable samurai is expected to show no fear. He doesn't run to save himself, but he may run to better serve his lord. This all ends up meaning that the death rate is high, and self-preservation is low.

The game designers recognize this, and address it. They have a rule called the 'dharma' rule. Whenever a PC dies doing something heroic, he is eligible to start as his previous xp total (roughly, since you spend xp instead of leveling in L5R). If he's not eligible for dharma, he starts over. Aside from heroic deaths, it might also apply to any death for a principle. The player knows that he could escape and be dishonored or censured, but the character would accept death before dishonor. Allowing the character to make the correct in-character choice without OOC penalty makes all the difference. Instead of worrying about losing a level or starting over, the PCs can worry about just playing the game.

My point is, sometimes players die because they were beaten. That doesn't usually mean that they "chose" to die. Sometimes they will willingly sacrifice themselves because they want to save someone else, or have made the decision that they will die for X cause. In most cases, it would seem inappropriate to raise someone who died for a cause like that. But in any case, the truly self-sacrificing PC should be rewarded for a compelling story and good role-playing.

So here's my rule, since you've read this much already: Raise Dead/Ressurection/True Res are around and unchanged. They can be used as written. If a character dies and I feel it was to further the story and not a stupid mistake or bad luck, then I'll usually give him an XP award to either match or at least make up for the XP lost by resurrection. If I feel that it would cheapen the story (and the players agree... which is usually the case) then the gods will not allow his soul back. I haven't had to exercise the "my soul" clause yet, but it's a safeguard. If it's more appropriate for the character to not return, then I allow a new character to be made at the average party level. I will also allow that kind of return if a character is forced into retirement by me, the DM. I don't allow abandonment of PC's, or suicidal PC's. If you try that, then I'll make you start at half the average party level as a cohort.
 

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In the campaigns I have run I have killed many PCs but only had one come back from death, and he came back as an undead. Friendly high level clerics are just not that common in my game.
 

There's almost never a Cleric in any game I run, and I never play them myself. Buying magic is discouraged, and we generally play a very low-magic game.

The penalty for dying in one of our games is almost always rolling up a new character.

We have a lot of special abilities, and we generally aim for a very action movie tone, so action points might make sense for our games. Resurrection just isn't much of an option, though I'm sure someone will try eventually to have a character raised.

Of course, when I get that superhero game running, bringing characters back from the dead will be even more fun. :D
 

Mark said:


See, to me, that seems more like collective story telling than a game. I'm sure you all have fun or you would not be doing it that way, but do actions have any severe consequences or is "they all lived happily ever after" always a part of the formula?

That depends on what you consider severe consequences. The whole party was enslaved more than once due to bad planning/bad decisions, one captivity lasting several months, more than 4 sessions real time. There is also loss of status, wealth, gear etc., and just plain failure to save the innocents. All those consequences apply only to PCs though - I don't deal with severe consequences to players.

None of those consequences ruined the fun for a player, and I doubt it bothered them much if at all - which is how it should be, in my opinion. I game for fun, not to get annoyed or experience loss. I don't see why I should try to make the game less fun for me or my friends - doing things that lessen the fun would be stupid, imho.

It is still a game, though - actions are resolved through rolls, the rules are in effect, etc. It is just that the PCs don't die due to bad rolls. All in all a small difference, imho.
 

As for death penalties, it seems to me that the most important thing is that the penalties be established in advance of any campaign. If they are known, and the players complain later, they can be referred back to the initial decision to which they agreed.

So, if you sprang this penalty on the players without their being aware of it in advance, perhaps you were being unfair. If not, the player is the one being unfair to you in not sticking to the established parameters of the game.

NRG

I guess the player is being unfair to me then. At the beginning of the campaign I warned my group that I was doing death and revivification by the book. When the moment of truth arrived, however, I softened and went with the XP-decifit method instead of actual level loss.
 

MythandLore said:
From The Game Mechanics
http://www.thegamemechanics.com/index.asp
http://www.thegamemechanics.com/freebies/index.asp (scroll to the bottom of page)

Dead Heroes Aren't Much Fun
Latest version posted on January 5, 2003.
Latest revision: Increased image compression, greatly reducing file size.
JD's players were feeling pretty defeated in The Heart of Nightfang Spire, the fifth adventure in Wizards of the Coast's Adventure Path series for Dungeons & Dragons. Rivaling the original Tomb of Horrors in its deadliness, Nightfang offers little recourse for those who lose levels due to an untimely death. How do you deal with a system that weakens your characters at the same time it expects them to increase in power? JD decided to revise the spells raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection to help keep the Adventure Path campaign moving forward.
Download Dead Heroes zipped PDF. (260KB)

I didn't like these suggestions.
They make True Resurrection unnecessary, as all you need is Raise Dead and Restoration to suffer no disadvantage from dying.

Geoff.
 

ForceUser said:
Regarding the character in question, nothing short of a true resurrection or a wish will bring him back. Thus, he moves right to the "start a new character" part of things, in which your system is slightly harsher than mine.

Very little in D&D causes such permanent obliteration as to require a wish or true res to reverse. That goes double for what a 2nd or 3rd level party might be expected to face. The fact that you decided to kill the PC off in such a manner says more about your DMing style than anything.

What do you mean?

It's easy for you to glorify heroic death, if your character isn't the one doing the dying.

That's a statement about your priorities, re death vs survival.
 
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Greater risk = greater reward.

mouseferatu said:
Heh. I'm the exact opposite. I prefer to know that the characters are at risk; to me, it adds to the drama of the story. That's one thing I've liked about TV shows like Babylon 5 or Buffy--even "main" characters can die. (Granted, on Buffy they tend to come back in some form or another, but still...)
I'm the same. The risk vs. reward scenario in story-telling is what makes stories so appealing. Nobody would read about a character who took no risks and therefore gained nothing or, for that matter, took no risks and gained everything. Such is boring and trite and has nothing to do with reality. Even lotto winners pay a price for their riches in the form of social upheaval.

The most memorable moments in gaming are when your characters BARELY scrape through a scenario by using their wits, courage, or every damn offensive capability they've got!

Think about it. Think about all the most memorable moments in your games. I bet most of them have to do with tight situations where the characters have somehow gotten through against the odds.

That's why low-magic, grim'n'gritty worlds are so popular. The greater the odds, the greater the feeling of success after survival.

Quite frankly, I don't believe 1 level is enough and I'll be doing away with True Resurrection and upping the level of Raise Dead/Resurrection and Reincarnate and be making them more costly to the caster. Greater risk, greater reward.
 

hong said:


Very little in D&D causes such permanent obliteration as to require a wish or true res to reverse. That goes double for what a 2nd or 3rd level party might be expected to face. The fact that you decided to kill the PC off in such a manner says more about your DMing style than anything.
Hah. First off, I didn't "decide to kill off" a PC. I crafted an encounter, made sure the CR was level-appropriate, and let events unfold as they would. And you're right, very little causes that. Flip through your Monster Manual sometime.


It's easy for you to glorify heroic death, if your character isn't the one doing the dying.

That's a statement about your priorities, re death vs survival.
Oh, I get it. Based on what I've described, you're assuming I run my game as a me-vs-the players thing. Maybe you think I get off on character death? Whatever, you're wrong. You know what they say about assumptions.
 

Re: Greater risk = greater reward.

Fourecks said:

That's why low-magic, grim'n'gritty worlds are so popular. The greater the odds, the greater the feeling of success after survival.

Quite frankly, I don't believe 1 level is enough and I'll be doing away with True Resurrection and upping the level of Raise Dead/Resurrection and Reincarnate and be making them more costly to the caster. Greater risk, greater reward.

I would suggest adding a fine to the player then. I am sure that if you have to pay say 50 to 100 bucks for each PC of yours that dies the risk (and hence the reward) will be so much greater ... :p
 

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