D&D 4E Deciding Between PFTPG and D&D4e/E. Also, Four Simple Questions (D&D 4e repost)

[Truename]

Reading your requirements, it sounds like you'd be happier with Pathfinder. 4e player books don't read very well--they're mostly fairly dry lists of powers. The Essentials books are much more readable and interesting, but probably don't have the mechanical complexity you're looking for.

On the other hand, getting your information from Pathfinder vs. 4e threads is not a great idea. Those threads are filled with misinformation, haters, and trolls. So I'm going to correct a few misconceptions:

D&D 4e appears to be outdated with the new Essentials (4E) lineup.

Nothing about 4e is outdated by Essentials. The Essentials line is a combination of reprints and new options geared towards new and lapsed players.

Essentials is:
1- A comprehensive, errata'd rulebook
2- Two player books with new classes and old races
3- A DM kit that mostly reprints DMG1; includes an adventure and monster tokens
4- A monster kit with reprinted and new monsters; includes monster tokens
5- Three sets of reprinted dungeon tiles
6- Dice.

Essentials is a separate issue from 4e's errata, which 4e accumulates quickly. I personally like the constant attention to balance, but if you don't like errata, 4e is not a good choice for you.

Since I like getting a complete experience from a game, I wouldn't want to leave out any core books, even if I don't pick them up until later after gaining legitimate interest).

Wizards says 'everything is core,' so 'core' is subjective when it comes to 4e. Personally, my suggestion for a nice set of 4e purchases would be:

- Rules Compendium
- Dungeon Masters Guide 1 and 2
- Monster Vault (depending on reviews)
- Monster Manual 3
- DDI Subscription (at least one month)
- Possibly a flavor book or two, such as Open Grave, The Plane Below, etc.
- Possibly a campaign setting.

The Rules Compendium has all of the important rules; 4e's DMGs are excellent; Monster Manual 3 is supposed to be very good (and the first 2 MMs suffer from major errata problems); and the flavor and campaign books sound like the kind of thing you'd like to read. DDI gets you all the crunch from the books you don't buy--stuff that's fun to play, but isn't worth buying to read.

If you're on a tight budget, get the Rules Compendium, a month of DDI for the Character Builder and Monster Builder, and spend the rest of your money on flavor and campaign books. You don't need the DMG to DM a game.

For just a taste, though, all you need is the Rules Compendium, the free levels of Character Builder, and one of the free adventures on WotC's site. That would let you evaluate how the game plays, if not how it reads.

2) What makes D&D 4e feel like World of Warcraft?

It doesn't. That's the kind of misinformation you find on edition war threads.

5) I hate errata (something keeping more away from D&D 4e).

4e has a lot of errata. It's a consequence of the power system--there's a lot of moving parts and keeping them balanced is tricky. Also, some of the core of the game (particularly skills) was released before it was fully baked. If you hate errata, you probably should stay away from 4e.

 

[Mercurius]

Short answer: It sounds like you're already leaning heavily towards Pathfinder, so I'd just go with it. You really can't go wrong--both are excellent games and aren't as different from each other in terms of what your roleplaying experience will be, despite what many say. Sure, the game systems are different, but both are fundamentally Dungeons & Dragons, and both are excellent games.

That said, another way to go is to get the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and the 4E Players Handbook or Rules Compendium. Worst case scenario and you've "wasted" $30ish bucks on a game you won't play, but then you have the books to browse through for ideas. I play 4E but I buy Paizo books as well, both for enjoyment of reading and for mining ideas. I own the Core rulebook, the Gamemastery Guide, the Golarion World Book, and about fifteen Chronicles books. I don't use any of them in my game, but I do browse them for ideas and enjoy reading them.

Two benefits from each to keep in mind:

Pathfinder - You've got the entire wealth of 3.5 and the OGL to draw from--that is literally thousands of products, plus future support from Paizo, which is a very gamer-friendly company.

D&D 4E - Continual support from WotC, plus the use of DDI if you want to pay the subscription ($10 gets you one month, within which you can download Character Builder and Monster Builder--which are about 90% of the value, imo, and then cancel and re-subscribe every six months or so for updates).

Again, from what you've said and your general tone I'd just dive into Pathfinder. You won't be disappointed. But I wouldn't hesitate to get a 4E book or two just to get a sense of what it is like. Maybe get the Essentials Red Box, which will give you a nice feel for the game. To put it another way, rather than throwing 100% of your money into one game, I'd throw 80-90% into the game you will likely play (Pathfinder) and 10-20% into the game you won't but can draw ideas from and reading enjoyment (4E).

 

[baconcow]

Well, I really appreciate all of the replies I received. I have looked a lot at the Essentials Players book and the Pathfinder Core Rule Book at chapters earlier today and I definitely like the look and read of the Pathfinder book. I wouldn't consider a purchase a waste if I could read it in the future. I am always open to more games (just see my BoardGameGeek account) and will probably give D&D 4 a try once it has moved further into (or out of) the Essentials and matured a little. I don't like how WotC has not reprinted their core books. I have never been one to read rules and such online/comp, beyond learning which game to choose. Once again to everyone, thanks for your replies. I'll thank you all when my experience reloads. I appreciate all the effort put into the replies, biased or not (I expected this and don't mind it one bit).

 

[Phat Lute]

As for the errata and essentials not being 4.5 thing goes...

I know it can look intimidating, but if you actually look at the 22 pages of errata on the PhB, very little of it is actually core rules. Most of the errata involves specific powers, feats or class abilities. Essentials isn't really 4.5 because it doesn't actually change very much at all. Most all of the changes are small tweaks to existing powers or class abilities, with no actual change to the guts of the game.

I think that the distinction that can be made here is that you have two different character building systems (one with the same level-based chart for everyone that is about as close to the toolkit approach as one can get with classes and levels, and one with class-based leveling charts that is much more linear) with varying degrees of resemblance to the original class builds that use the same name, using the same combat system.

I think that's the reason why people have such a huge difference of opinion on 4e and 4ee: some people think of the combat system when you say "the rules" and some people's minds automatically go to class building as "the rules." Both are correct, but different people put emphasis on different things. That's why we've got one group of people saying that the changes are massive, and another group wondering WTH they're talking about and treating them like they're crazy.

If you were looking at just getting Essentials or just getting PHBs, I'd say the changes are pretty significant just in character building. For game mechanics, it's the same system almost exactly, yes. I'd agree there are few things the errata has changed. For character building mechanics, it really does look like a completely different game.

 

[baconcow]

The only thing I regret is not what I choose, but why it took me this long to start one of these. I never was on a forum board that replied so promptly and with so many responses. Both this 4e board and the Pathfinder boards are excellent. Thanks EN World users!

 

[On Puget Sound]

re essentials/ non-essentials compatibility and character customization: Essentials clerics and wizards, since they have encounter and daily powers, can be very extensively modded using powers from all the PHBs, Power books, etc. (Note that the warpriest domain powers can be swapped for powers of thesame type and level - beyond at-wills, you don't even need to have any domain powers at all. ) Martial classes cannot, since their essential versions' at-wills are fixed and they get no encounters or dailies to swap out. However, you can still do a fair amount with utility powers and feats from non-essentials sourcebooks to make one slayer or thief different from the next.

 

[Dire Bare]

I currently play and prefer 4e, but eye the Pathfinder products with envy and avarice in my heart (I want them all!!!). It definitely sounds like Pathfinder is a better way to go for you, but don't go and purchase all those books at once! At least if you are on a budget! One of the most common pieces of advice you'll read in professional articles in Dragon magazine and elsewhere is "start small." Purchase just the Core Rulebook first, and then look around Paizo's sites for some of the freebies they offer. Granted, their usually PDF files to be read on your computer (offline), but you can get at least one adventure and a decent small collections of monsters for your first adventure. If everything goes swimmingly, then the Gamemaster Guide and Bestiary are good 2nd tier purchases, as well as some modules (if you aren't going to create your own). There's no reason you can't get the Advanced Player's Guide right away, but you don't really need it until you and your players have had a chance to enjoy the base classes in the Core Rulebook and are ready for something new.

Paizo's Golarion setting is a wonderful product also and will be an excellent buy, but it also isn't something you need right away . . . . and you might consider creating your own setting!

If you can afford getting all of those big, beautiful rulebooks all at once, well more power to you! Just know that you can start out small and work your way up. Paizo's so good, you'll probably get sucked into subscribing to their adventure paths soon enough anyway!

 

[baconcow]

I agree with what you say completely. However, if I am going to purchase a $33 book (Core Rules), I am also going to purchase the Bestiary. Since I have an Amazon gc for $50, I would rather save having to pay shipping on an order under $39 (Canada is not $25 for free shipping, like the USA). Adding in the second book (which I will definitely read for fluff), I save that shipping and get everything in one bang. If I decide to just buy the Bestiary later, I have to pay $42 (Chapters Brick and Motar) instead of $26 (Amazon.ca). I won't be touching the GameMastery, any paid modules, or any other books until later. However, if I get into it, I would consider that World Book coming out in 2011 (Inner Sea) and perhaps the Advanced Player's guide when it is reprinted.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

btw you could get off with essential just with:

Heroes of the Fallen lands + DM's KIT

you would get support to 30th level for the core classes + 2 adventures + rules + dm's screen + token + monster + the basic of the 4th edition core ambientation (points of light/Nentir valley)

that's 17$+30$=47$

you should just get dice

 

[geekgazette]

First of all both games are good. I won't deny that I am a bit biased because I do prefer Pathfinder over 4e, but I also like 4e. Well actually I like 4e Essentials.

Game imbalance only occurs if you let it. If you are playing with a group that can work together, since RPGs are a cooperative endeavor, there is no such thing. Each PC will have their role and it is the DM's job to make sure that each PC has their moment to shine. Regardless I have had no problem with imbalance of any kind in Pathfinder and it is definitely my go to game. Again I am biased, but of the two I have to say PFRPG is the better of the two.

That being said, I have found that I really like the 4e Essentials line as well. The newer books are much "easier" and more enjoyable to read than the original core books. Everything about the books is easier for a new player to grasp than it was when the game first came out. I'm teaching my 12 year old 4e using the Essentials and she is having no problems. If you are going the way of 4e, definitely get the Essentials books, IMO.

Any RPG is customizable so that should not be an issue.

As for cost, all you need for Pathfinder is the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
The [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook/dp/1601251505/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285496511&sr=8-1"]Core Rulebook can be found on Amazon[/ame] for around $30.
The [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Bestiary/dp/1601251831/ref=sr_1_3?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285496511&sr=8-3"]Bestiary can be found on Amazo[/ame]n for around $25.
Total Cost $55

For D&D 4e Essentials all you need is Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Rules Compendium and a Monster Manual.
On Amazon they run:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Compendium-Essential-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786956216/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285496782&sr=8-1"]Rules Compendium [/ame]around $12
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Fallen-Lands-Essential-Supplement/dp/0786956208/ref=sr_1_3?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285496782&sr=8-3"]Heroes of the Fallen Lands[/ame] around $12
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Manual-Rulebook-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786954906/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285496807&sr=8-1"]Monster Manual [/ame]3 around $22.
Total Cost around $46.

Of course you could just get the Rules Compendium and a DDI membership. The DDi membership will give you access to all the monsters, with updated rules, and nearly every class/race option.
1 year DDI subscription = $71.40
Rules Compendium around $12
Total cost for 1 year = around $84
You can also "try" DDi for one month at a cost of $9.95/month and then cancel or upgrade.

If you are in college and have a school email you can get an Amazon student membership and have free 2 day shipping for items that are Prime eligible. The items will have Prime next to the price. (Example)

Honestly no one can tell you which game you will like better. In my opinion Pathfinder is more detailed, in terms of having rules for various situations and allowing personal customization of your character. However, 4e Essentials offers more in terms of pre-customized classes than Pathfinder so that argument is kind of a wash.
Both games can be used to run any type of game you want, from high magic to low magic campaigns. They can both be cinematic and action backed, full of intrigue or horror. So "style" should not be an issue. You may also here from my fellow 3e/Pathfinder fans that 4e is too much like an MMO. At first glance it may seem that way, but in reality it is not. 4e is a solid RPG and any RPG can be as fun or as dull as you and your group make it.

One last point in favor of Pathfinder. Since Pathfinder is compatible with nearly any D&D 3.5 product, you have years worth of material that you can buy cheap and use in your game. Personally I like using the Monster Manuals and Campaign Settings (Eberron, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms) with Pathfinder. You can pick them up on Amazon or ebay for as little as $5. Currently I'm running Eberron in Pathfinder. Though the 3.5 classes and races are compatible with Pathfinder, I don't use them because they are slightly less powerful in 3.5 than in PFRPG. Though there are tons of free resources for converting 3.5 classes and races to PFRPG. If you go with Pathfinder just go to the Pathfinder Database or google which ever 3.5 to Pathfinder conversion you are looking for. The conversion process is extremely simple and if you get a fair grasp on the rules you can do it yourself in a couple of minutes.

Even though I can't help showing my bias in favor of Pathfinder, I also can't speak ill of 4e Essentials. I honestly like them both a great deal.
I would discourage you from buying the "regular" 4e core rulebooks just because I think the Essentials PHB and CR are far superior. Again that is just my opinion and I'm sure there are 4e players that think I'm crazy for saying that.