D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[Flamestrike]

What you've described here, is essentially surprise. The outcome is not in doubt BECAUSE the greatsword guy didn't anticipate the dagger guy drawing and throwing.

Actually, it's not surprise at all. The greatsword guy was aware of dagger guy, and alert to a possible threat.

If greatsword guy was his best friend, or husband and they were having a pleasant chat, and the attack occured, we could talk (but even then, there would be a preliminary insight check involved)

If the greatsword guy doesn't know that the dagger guy is drawing and throwing - then 5e handles that with surprise.

He doesnt need to know what the dagger guy intends to do on his first turn of the first round.

He only needs to know that there is a potential threat in front of him.

Unless greatsword guy is hidden when combat starts (and combat starts when he declares his hostile act, which then triggers initiative, with the declared action - or any other action for that matter - happening in turn order) or otherwise observed by dagger guy, but there is literally no way dagger guy could anticipate a possible attack, then it's initiative as normal.

Scenario:

The PCs have an audience with the King. Halfway through the discussions, the pompous King makes an offhand remark about 'unwashed Barbarians'. The (PC) Barbarian takes insult:

King (DM, nonchalantly sipping his wine): I wish for you to track down some Bandits for the Crown. I will pay you each 500gp for this task should you end this menace to the realm. These scum are likely filthy outlanders, Barbarians of the foulest sort...
Grog Facesmasher (Player, to the horror of the other PCs at the table): DM, on hearing that remark, I suddenly flip the table, enter Rage, draw my Axe and attack the King!

In this example, there is no surprise. The King has literally zero reason to trust the PCs, and every reason not to. It's initiative as normal. It goes like this:

DM (pauses to think a second): Err OK Grog. With a howl of anger, you all see Grog reach for his Axe, with bloodlust in his eyes, fixated on the King! The King looks on aghast, ready to call for his guards, who start advancing towards the Party, hands on weapons! Roll initiative.

In our example assume:

Should another PC (say the Wizard) go first:

Quadratic Simulacrumwisher (PC Wizard, initiative count 20, first to act in turn 1): DM, as I see Grog go for his weapon I quickly cast sleep on Grog, seeking to knock hm out and diffuse the situation.

Should the King go first:

DM (as the King): The King, fearful of your rage, leaps from his table and races off towards a door in the back of the room, screaming out "Guards, protect me!!'' (takes the dodge action, and moves 30' away)

That's how it works mate. There are no combat actions 'outside of combat' and there is no surprise when a DM declares combat sequencing starts (so before any hostile acts have taken place) and at the time the DM declares combat is starting, all sides are aware of the other, and the possibility they may be a potential threat (in the broadest possible way).

 

[Plaguescarred]

I usually use normal initiative order, relying on declaration of intent to instigate combat encounter, but not necessarily be the first to actually act. I rule it as written in PHB and further discussed in Dragon Talk. If one side surprised the other, it means the surprised creature will never be able to move and act before the instigator though, but may be able to later react if it rolled higher initiative and has a reaction it can use.

​

 

[Flamestrike]

Another example.

Your PC is in a magic item shop in town, trying to buy a +1 Sword from a vendor. As he enters he spots an NPC selling one to the Vendor for 1000gp, 500 more than you have on you. You decide to Leeroy Jenkins that sucker and take him down. All three parties are aware of each other and no-one is hidden.

You (as your PC): DM, screw this. I draw my sword and run through the NPC and take his sword!

DM: Errr... OK mate, It's your funeral. As you reach for your sword, you see both NPCs eyes widen in horror, as they turn in your direction. The Vendors starts chanting some arcane language, and the guy with the Sword hold it in his hands effortlessly, clearly a capable warrior himself. Roll initiative.

Actions then occur in turn order as normal.

That's the RAW, the stated intent of the authors (as expressly stated in the video above) and it makes sense narratively as long as you make it make sense.

Granting surprise simply because a Player or Monster screamed out 'I ATTACK' first is the consequence of failing to adhere to the RAW, and with the extreme advantage of a whole extra turn in 5E (and depriving people of reactions) being severe, it's something to be avoided.

 

[Maxperson]

I usually use normal initiative order, relying on declaration of intent to instigate combat encounter, but not necessarily be the first to actually act. I rule it as written in PHB and further discussed in Dragon Talk. If one side surprised the other, it means the surprised creature will never be able to move and act before the instigator though, but may be able to later react if it rolled higher initiative and has a reaction it can use.

​

I usually use it that way as well. There are just some circumstances where it would not be possible to beat the instigator without having some absurd situation occur, in which case RAW allows me to just say he goes first.

 

[Mort]

Actually, it's not surprise at all. The greatsword guy was aware of dagger guy, and alert to a possible threat.

Not the way it was initially described. My point was if the Dagger guy was 30+ feet away had done nothing to alert greatsword guy to his presence (say by being in a crowded tavern and being sneaky) and covertly drew and threw the dagger - that's a possible surprise scenario.

Without that, it's just standard initiative and the greatsword guy may get to act first.

 

[Maxperson]

Not the way it was initially described. My point was if the Dagger guy was 30+ feet away had done nothing to alert greatsword guy to his presence (say by being in a crowded tavern and being sneaky) and covertly drew and threw the dagger - that's a possible surprise scenario.

Without that, it's just standard initiative and the greatsword guy may get to act first.

In my opinion it doesn't really matter if he notices or not. It's not possible for him to react to a throw and get to the thrower before the throw happens, so initiative should be an automatically successful ability check on the part of the thrower. Now, if the greatsword guy just wanted to drink a potion that he was holding, that could happen fast enough and the outcome would be in doubt. That wasn't the declared action on the greatsword fighter's part, though. It was to rush and attack the thrower which there just isn't time to do before dagger is flying through the air.

 

[Lyxen]

That's how it works mate. There are no combat actions 'outside of combat' and there is no surprise when a DM declares combat sequencing starts (so before any hostile acts have taken place) and at the time the DM declares combat is starting, all sides are aware of the other, and the possibility they may be a potential threat (in the broadest possible way).

Indeed, I completely agree with what you say. The problem, in general, is players thinking that they are very clever and that NPCs are stupid. The bad news is that they are played by a DM who is usually at least as clever as the player, and that most people agree that the game is way better when NPCs are NOT stupid...

 

[Flamestrike]

Not the way it was initially described. My point was if the Dagger guy was 30+ feet away had done nothing to alert greatsword guy to his presence (say by being in a crowded tavern and being sneaky) and covertly drew and threw the dagger - that's a possible surprise scenario.

If GS guy was unaware of D guy when D guy declared an attack (being hidden in a -non hostile - crowd, 30' away) then yeah we could talk.

If the two of them were instead sitting there talking to one another, the assumption is a certain level of wariness that precludes any possibility of surprise.

I might allow surprise when a 100 percent trusted ally, fully in view, suddenly attacks without warning (for example when a Doppelganger of a PCs lover suddenly and without warning plunges a dagger in their back during a loving embrace) but even then it would be a Deception vs Insight check first (in place of a Stealth v Perception check).

 

[Plaguescarred]

I usually use it that way as well. There are just some circumstances where it would not be possible to beat the instigator without having some absurd situation occur, in which case RAW allows me to just say he goes first.

Agreed there's some very rare case where it may not make sense but for most case it works fine. The whole idea here is especially to avoid PCs and NPCs taking action before initiative giving them free turn. There's no surprise round or free turn, everyone gets a turn in the 1st round, even surprised creatures.

There is often also the whole question of Surprise that may not apply RAW when everyone is aware of each others but one is suddenly pulling an unexpected move against another, as the Surprise rules basically rely on Stealth vs Perception. But that can also easily be adapted with alternate resolution, such as Charisma (Deception) vs Wisdom (Insight) contest for exemple.

 

[Irlo]

In my opinion it doesn't really matter if he notices or not. It's not possible for him to react to a throw and get to the thrower before the throw happens, so initiative should be an automatically successful ability check on the part of the thrower. Now, if the greatsword guy just wanted to drink a potion that he was holding, that could happen fast enough and the outcome would be in doubt. That wasn't the declared action on the greatsword fighter's part, though. It was to rush and attack the thrower which there just isn't time to do before dagger is flying through the air.

That opens a can of worms. There’s no pre-initiative declaration of intent.

The DM needs to adjudicate initiative order without knowing whether the greatsword guy is going to drink a potion or charge and attack.