D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[Flamestrike]

I loathe DMs who do 'attacks outside of combat'.

Worst ever one was a DM who had an Ogre attack me 'outside of combat' because he snuck up on me in the dark. I pointed out I was Alert from the feat (and thus immune to surprise) and his response was it 'wasnt surprise because that only happens on the first round of combat), and we were not in combat yet'.

Needless to say that was the last time I played in that game.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Step 1: "The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results." - PHB page 174

Step 2: "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order." - PHB page 189

Since initiative is an ability check and is not an attack, it falls under this rule. Since the outcome is not uncertain as it's impossible for the fighter to get to the dagger thrower before the throw happens, we don't have to concoct a ridiculous justification for how it's possible or have the DM roleplay the PC.

By RAW, the DM can(and in my opinion should) just tell the dagger thrower than he wins initiative and goes first without a roll. Then for the others, including the fighter, for whom the outcome is uncertain, a roll is called for.

I mean, while I agree with the applicability of the rules cited here, this truly all comes down to whether the DM feels there is any uncertainty to the dagger thrower’s action declaration in the scene. Some DMs here say no, some say yes. All have… reasons.

For me, given that the OP clearly indicates surprise is not a possibility in that everyone is wary in this scene, I think that should be the main consideration in guiding the DM towards a reasonable adjudication. IMO, a quick dagger throw before anyone else can act is simply not guaranteed in the manner this particular scene has been set up. Due to that uncertainty, initiative is rolled.

 

[Flamestrike]

That opens a can of worms. There’s no pre-initiative declaration of intent.

It's not a declaration of a future action that you must do when your turn comes up.

Its a declaration of intended hostilities, that triggers the transition from narrative time to combat time, via an initiative check.

After that check, in turn order, actions then happen.

In Grogs case above (or in the PC trying to get the sword) when their turn 1 comes up, they can elect to do something totally different to what they declared they would do (although a DM could totally rule - You declared it, no takings back now that you rolled poorly on initiative and they beat you and were able to react in time). .

 

[Irlo]

It's not a declaration of a future action that you must do when your turn comes up.

Its a declaration of intended hostilities, that triggers the transition from narrative time to combat time, via an initiative check.

After that check, in turn order, actions then happen.

I was referencing Max’s specific example of the greatsword guy’s choice of action, after the instigation but before determining if he can beat the dagger thrower in imitative. If he’s going to charge and attack he can’t roll initiative? But if he drinks a potion he can? At what point is that declaration made? If you look at it this way, how can the DM establish an initiative order without a pre-initiative commitment from all parties?

 

[Flamestrike]

I was referencing Max’s specific example of the greatsword guy. If he’s going to charge and attack he can’t roll initiative? But if he drinks a potion he can?

Drinking a potion likely doesnt initiate combat (although it could in certain circumstances).

Hostile actions should always occur in initiative order.

 

[Mort]

In my opinion it doesn't really matter if he notices or not. It's not possible for him to react to a throw and get to the thrower before the throw happens, so initiative should be an automatically successful ability check on the part of the thrower. Now, if the greatsword guy just wanted to drink a potion that he was holding, that could happen fast enough and the outcome would be in doubt. That wasn't the declared action on the greatsword fighter's part, though. It was to rush and attack the thrower which there just isn't time to do before dagger is flying through the air.

There are a few things at play here:

1) Does GSG actually know of the threat 30'+ away?
- If he doesn't, then sure, he has no chance of getting to DG before DG can throw the dagger - done.

2) But if he does, say someone yells a warning AS the guy is going for his dagger -
- There are ALL sorts of ways to justify simple initiative.
- For ex. DG is drawing but is spooked when a warned GSG does a full on charge brandishing a very large weapon. He hesitates and is beaten to the punch by GSG. There, justifies losing initiative within the fiction; But also

3. This is a game. DG suspects GSG, even if warned, can only cover 30ft so he throws from 40' away (which has consequences but nevermind) and he'll get the throw off before getting attacked by GSG.

I prefer to just resolve with game mechanics, when possible, as opposed to fiat winning initiative. The initial situation, and the offshoots so far in the thread, haven't shown a reason to do otherwise, IMO of course.

 

[Irlo]

Drinking a.potion likely doesnt initiate combat (although it could in certain circumstances).

Hostile actions should always occur in initiative order.

No, I get it. The thrower initiates combat. Max suggested that if the greatsword guy was drinking a potion, he could possibly beat the thrower’s initiative. But if he was charging into melee, he could not.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Well, adventurers knows that sometimes drinking a potion can be part of buffing attempt before combat, and declaring intent of casting a spell or using a magic item, including drinking a potion, may be enought for a DM to start initiative.

At worse we go a round or two and find out we're parlaying and get out of it. But if not, and someone during its turn targeted a creature with an attack or spell, at least we'll be in initiative.

 

[Maxperson]

Agreed there's some very rare case where it may not make sense but for most case it works fine. The whole idea here is especially to avoid PCs and NPCs taking action before initiative giving them free turn. There's no surprise round or free turn, everyone gets a turn in the 1st round, even surprised creatures.

Yeah. In the case I'm arguing here the dagger thrower would go first, but everyone else would still get a normal action since there is no surprise. No free round for him.

There is often also the whole question of Surprise that may not apply RAW when everyone is aware of each others but one is suddenly pulling an unexpected move against another, as the Surprise rules basically rely on Stealth vs Perception. But that can also easily be adapted with alternate resolution, such as Charisma (Deception) vs Wisdom (Insight) contest for exemple.

Agreed.

 

[Maxperson]

That opens a can of worms. There’s no pre-initiative declaration of intent.

There has to be. Something has to trigger the initiative roll when you have groups and no combat. Someone has to declare something hostile.

If you have a tax collector and his 4 guards trying to collect taxes from the PCs, there's no combat. It's all social. Until one of the PCs says, "I draw my sword and cut the tax collector down." At that point we stop and roll initiative.

The DM needs to adjudicate initiative order without knowing whether the greatsword guy is going to drink a potion or charge and attack.

I see what you are saying, but again the potion drinking was situational, requiring it to be in hand. He's not going to be grabbing a potion out of a pouch and drinking it before that dagger is away, either. This is how I see it going down.

Player: "I'm tired of talking. I throw the dagger that I have in my hand at the fighter with the greatsword."
DM: "Okay. Since you had it in hand and there's no way anyone is going to be able to react before you, you go first and then initiative rolls will determine the order of everyone else."

OR

DM: "Okay. However, since the fighter had a potion in his hand and is alert, he will be the only one you have to roll against since he's the only other person here who is ready to act. If you beat him you go first, then the fighter, then initiative rolls for everyone else."