D&D 5E Decoupling Smite from spell slots?

[FrogReaver]

Perhaps the better houserule is to limit your ability to divine smite to proficiency times per day while still having it take the spell slots. This leaves multiple slots per day you have to use for things other than divine smiting.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That might be your goal, but it's not mine. I'd like to seperate the two abilities, so the paladin can be casting non-smite spells like shield of faith, locate object, crusader's mantle, find steed and the like without cutting (too deeply) into their ability to do combat damage. I'd personally like to remove the smite spells from existence.

Why do you think the strongest martial class needs more?

If anything, we should be getting away from all classes having spell slots. I dont get the point of a class based system only to turn around and make everyone some variant of caster.

 

[Stormonu]

Why do you think the strongest martial class needs more?

Because paladins are fun, and I'd like to tweak the class to use spells a little more and smite a little less.

Could you step back about 3 feet?

 

[FrogReaver]

Because paladins are fun, and I'd like to tweak the class to use spells a little more and smite a little less.

Could you step back about 3 feet?

Another option:

variant: instead of divine smite a Paladin gains +2 charisma and advantage on concentration saving throws.

Solves for 2 reasons the Paladin doesn’t currently cast spells much (especially early game). Risk of losing concentration from being in melee. Lower save DCs from needing str and charisma both.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Because paladins are fun, and I'd like to tweak the class to use spells a little more and smite a little less.

Could you step back about 3 feet?

Taking away the smite ability and spell line would help balance them and get them to use spells more. Players probably play paladins to smite though, as if they wanted to cast spells they would have rolled a cleric. Removing spells entirely, adding some weapon cantrips, with short rest smites and challenges would help the class feel unique.

You asked about balance, and the consensus seems to be that paladins are already top tier so giving them more is the opposite direction. If you care about balance, implementing a rich get richer mechanic seems odd.

 

[Stormonu]

Another option:

variant: instead of divine smite a Paladin gains +2 charisma and advantage on concentration saving throws.

Solves for 2 reasons the Paladin doesn’t currently cast spells much (especially early game). Risk of losing concentration from being in melee. Lower save DCs from needing str and charisma both.

Would it be wiser to give them the ability to use Concentration using Charisma? Those focusing on spell use would likely have a higher Charisma in the first place.

 

[FrogReaver]

Would it be wiser to give them the ability to use Concentration using Charisma? Those focusing on spell use would likely have a higher Charisma in the first place.

I like it. Seems thematic too.

 

[steeldragons]

I think you want prof bonus times per day/"long rest" at a set damage. Extra d6 radiant (+Wis modifier?). Period.

If you want to do more extra damage than the feature, get an added d6 per spell slot level you care to expend, or use the smite spells, as intended, for additional/special effects.

So the Smite feature is decoupled from spell slots, as a default...but can still use spell slots if the player needs/wants.

 

[Stormonu]

Taking away the smite ability and spell line would help balance them and get them to use spells more. Players probably play paladins to smite though, as if they wanted to cast spells they would have rolled a cleric. Removing spells entirely, adding some weapon cantrips, with short rest smites and challenges would help the class feel unique.

You asked about balance, and the consensus seems to be that paladins are already top tier so giving them more is the opposite direction. If you care about balance, implementing a rich get richer mechanic seems odd.

Original paladins didn't get spells until 9th level, that might be an option but I find it a dissatisfying one as I don't normally play to those levels.

When I do get to play a paladin, I like to try to balance the smite vs. spellcasting - usually with utility spells for the latter. It is looking like splitting them out doesn't balance things - as said, still having spells leaves lots of options. This might not work out as I had hoped, but it was why I was asking.

<Edit: Oops - looks like it was 5th level. Maybe I was thinking of Rangers...>

 

[Helldritch]

Why give them the ability, then? If the point is to make them not use the ability, don't give them the ability!

Edit to add - generally, the Smite spells are of the form "the next time you hit a target before the spell ends". When the spell lasts for a minute, it is rather unlikely for it to be wasted. But, you want the Paladin's native ability to be easily wasted and use a spell slot?

That seems inconsistent, and seems to make a signature class ability to be worse than a spell.

The point is to make them take a risk in using their smite ability and to make spells a "riskless" option. Thus having them use spells more. The fact is that I do not have this problem at my table since paladins are already using smite spells a lot more than their smite ability exactly because of the combats in my games lasts longer that 3 or four rounds. It is one along the lines of 7 rounds sometimes a lot more.

That might be your goal, but it's not mine. I'd like to seperate the two abilities, so the paladin can be casting non-smite spells like shield of faith, locate object, crusader's mantle, find steed and the like without cutting (too deeply) into their ability to do combat damage. I'd personally like to remove the smite spells from existence.

Not mine either, it was just a suggestion as I told Umbran. So how would you do that? The smite ability is really tied to the average combat round, the possibility of multiclassing into warlock or sorcerer (or both) and abusing thw sorcery points and the short rest renewable spell slots of the warlock.

Tying the smite ability to paladin.spell slots only might be viable and making sure.combats are a bit longer might work for you. With 5 or 6 combat per day, paladins will run out of spell slots very fast if that character goes the smite all the time syndrome.