Deep down inside, do you eagerly anticipate a TPK?
- Thread starter dreaded_beast
- Start date
DragonShadow
First Post
When I achieve a TPK, I feel I have completed my job as a DM. Or at least, my secondary DM goal.
The way I see it, it's you versus the players. Obviously events are stacked mightily in your favor since you are, you know, GOD, but if you operate within certain limitations and then play the monsters/NPC's/villains out the way they should be played, and the end result is the TPK, congratulations.
You just outsmarted and out-played all of the PC's combined. As long as the match up is even, I will take satisfaction from the TPK. If I did, either by mistake or judgement or mistake of numbers/abilities/CR/etc I'll actually feel guilty for it.
Ultimately the question isn't whether or not you anticipate TPK's, it's whether or not they're fair.
As a player, I won't get uppity when my character dies by himself, or in a TPK; as long as we had a fair chance of survival/victory. If the match up was something along the lines of a 2nd level party going head to head with a Balor, there would be major screaming on my part at the DM, promptly followed by a real-life mimicry of what the Balor did to the PC's. ~.^
The way I see it, it's you versus the players. Obviously events are stacked mightily in your favor since you are, you know, GOD, but if you operate within certain limitations and then play the monsters/NPC's/villains out the way they should be played, and the end result is the TPK, congratulations.
You just outsmarted and out-played all of the PC's combined. As long as the match up is even, I will take satisfaction from the TPK. If I did, either by mistake or judgement or mistake of numbers/abilities/CR/etc I'll actually feel guilty for it.
Ultimately the question isn't whether or not you anticipate TPK's, it's whether or not they're fair.
As a player, I won't get uppity when my character dies by himself, or in a TPK; as long as we had a fair chance of survival/victory. If the match up was something along the lines of a 2nd level party going head to head with a Balor, there would be major screaming on my part at the DM, promptly followed by a real-life mimicry of what the Balor did to the PC's. ~.^
rei jin
First Post
in our group, im the only person to DM who has had any TPK's. we all DM from time to time (there are 4 of us) and so far i've caused about 4-5 TPK's on the last 2 years, and not even with hard challenge ratings. often playing an enemy as it's intelligence and wisdom allows (yes, we're talking about dragons) the entire party can be wiped out if they don't think about their actions(or if they stupidly take on a wyrm red dragon in it's lair).
that one had a cr 1 higher than the average character level, and they had above average stats and above average items, but they just didn't think.
it only took them 2 months to forget about it, so i did it again (hehehe)
ah, it's not my fault that i enjoy reaping havoc, don't hate me for it 8-Þ
that one had a cr 1 higher than the average character level, and they had above average stats and above average items, but they just didn't think.
it only took them 2 months to forget about it, so i did it again (hehehe)
ah, it's not my fault that i enjoy reaping havoc, don't hate me for it 8-Þ
Suffered a few
I've yet to inflict a TPK on my players in any sessions I've DMed. However, I've been in a few. From a player perspective, if the TPK is a result of plain old bad luck or the party went out in style then it's okay.
/rant
If, as happened to our party just recently it's a combination of bad luck and an obviously overpowered encounter then it does leave a bad taste. Especially if it results in the death of a character that you have been playing for a while.
/end rant
The biggest challenge for the DM is to balance the encounters. CRs can be way off (dragons and demons are good examples) and working out a challenging, but not deadly encounter can be a bit hit or miss. I think I've tended to err on the side of caution in the past, so some encounters ended up being a bit of a walkover for the party. However, in a recent encounter with some Babaus (CR6), a party of six 11-12th level PCs lost one magic weapon and more importantly one PC to a critital hit. Admittedly their tactics sucked.
Just my two cents,
Bigwilly
I've yet to inflict a TPK on my players in any sessions I've DMed. However, I've been in a few. From a player perspective, if the TPK is a result of plain old bad luck or the party went out in style then it's okay.
/rant
If, as happened to our party just recently it's a combination of bad luck and an obviously overpowered encounter then it does leave a bad taste. Especially if it results in the death of a character that you have been playing for a while.
/end rant
The biggest challenge for the DM is to balance the encounters. CRs can be way off (dragons and demons are good examples) and working out a challenging, but not deadly encounter can be a bit hit or miss. I think I've tended to err on the side of caution in the past, so some encounters ended up being a bit of a walkover for the party. However, in a recent encounter with some Babaus (CR6), a party of six 11-12th level PCs lost one magic weapon and more importantly one PC to a critital hit. Admittedly their tactics sucked.
Just my two cents,
Bigwilly
wedgeski
Adventurer
I think I'd enjoy inflicting a TPK, although in many many years of DM'ing I've never managed to. Also, the reaction would vary greatly across my group: one guy would almost certainly huff and puff and demand to know what dice I rolled and when, and at the other end of the table one of my other players would undoubtedly relish going out in a blaze of glory.
I have players who know the rules as well as me, and those who don't. I have players who've played as long as I have (twenty years, man and boy), and those who... haven't. I enjoy running an encounter that defeats the experienced players, because like it or not, you *are* in competition with them. You can see it in their eyes. They watch your every move for tell-tale body language. They listen intently to combat descriptions, trying to discern every tactic and special ability. They sit for 20 initiative segments with a smile on their face, trying to catch your eye as they patiently wait for their turn, certain in the knowledge that you have no defense against what they have planned.
That's pretty cool. It's less cool for the newer players, over whom a TPK tends to crash like a hurricane leaving them holding a d20 and wondering why their turn isn't, after all, coming up.
So, what was the question again?
I have players who know the rules as well as me, and those who don't. I have players who've played as long as I have (twenty years, man and boy), and those who... haven't. I enjoy running an encounter that defeats the experienced players, because like it or not, you *are* in competition with them. You can see it in their eyes. They watch your every move for tell-tale body language. They listen intently to combat descriptions, trying to discern every tactic and special ability. They sit for 20 initiative segments with a smile on their face, trying to catch your eye as they patiently wait for their turn, certain in the knowledge that you have no defense against what they have planned.
That's pretty cool. It's less cool for the newer players, over whom a TPK tends to crash like a hurricane leaving them holding a d20 and wondering why their turn isn't, after all, coming up.
So, what was the question again?
Kelleris
Explorer
I've never had a TPK... In fact, my players have remarkably low mortality rates. They still think I'm a hard DM for some reason. 
I blame the Far Realms... 
I feel like I ought to wipe them out occasionally, just on principle. To put the fear of the DM into them, you know. But I never have. I feel like a Monte Carlo DM trapped in a lenient DM's play style sometimes...
I blame the Far Realms... I feel like I ought to wipe them out occasionally, just on principle. To put the fear of the DM into them, you know. But I never have. I feel like a Monte Carlo DM trapped in a lenient DM's play style sometimes...
Remind me never to play with you. It is NEVER about DM v.s. Players. It is the job of the DM to provide an interesting interactive story for your players. It's your job as a DM to ensure everyone is having a good time (though the Players certainly have responsibilities in this as well). Being out to kill the players isn't fun... it's just lame.
Yeah right. Getting a TPK is easy. The only way I'd ever let a TPK happen is because the players are making stupid mistakes. Not a roll of the dice, not an encounter designed to result in a TPK. And even then I will never be proud of a TPK, because it's the end of whatever storyline I was developing... a story line that I've probably invested a LOT of time in. I just can't see how a TPK is fun, either for the DM or for the players.
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Kelleris
Explorer
MerricB said:
Ouch. You wound me, MerricB, to the very quick. Like a butteknife through salmon.
Karanov said:
Actually, I think of this as a valid DMing style. As long as the players are aware going in that your aim as a DM is to make a set of balanced challenges and then do your darnedest to beat them within the parameters of the game and the challenges selected - and the players are okay with these terms - Monte Carlo* games can be very fun. It makes it more of a game of tactical and role-playing challenges than a more give-and-take style, of course, but that's some people's preferred way to play the game.
Personally, I wish someone in our group was inclined to work this way. I feel that the best chance you get to work your tactical muscles is when the DM is gunning for you and has a stake in you losing. The tricky part is trusting your DM to set up fair encounters in the first place, of course...
* - this term is derived from an internet listing of DM styles I read ages ago. I'm sure you could find it somewhere pretty easily, since it looked like one of those archaic Usenet postings that just finds its way all around the internet.
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