Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[ThirdWizard]

Throwing distances are much lower than archery distances, so you're going to practically be in melee with thrown weapons anyway. Which means you are less powerful than the melee character who has put his feats into melee things.

The power of the archer isn't in taking 5' steps and shooting. The power of the archer is in being 100-200 feet away from you and shooting at you while you make your way toward him.

 

[Whimsical]

Why doesn't your fighter just start using his own ranged attacks if he can't reach the archer? He is not incapable of doing that. And he will have the same advantages and disadvantages.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Why doesn't your fighter just start using his own ranged attacks if he can't reach the archer? He is not incapable of doing that. And he will have the same advantages and disadvantages.

It depends on the character. Lots of fighters, especially those that use dex restrictive armor, won't have good ranged bonuses to hit. Add in that the enemy might have advantages via Rapid Shot and especially Far Shot, and the fighter is well advised to start running to their position instead of trying to shoot at the other guy. Either that or take full cover, depending on if its more important to survive or if some other goal is involved that would require facing against the enemy combatant.

And, if the archer isn't more than 40 feet away, that heavy fighter can reach them in one round, putting the archer character in some serious danger.

 

[meleeguy]

Honestly, when was the last time you let an archer step
back and shoot you in the face 5 times?

Based on extensive sca experiences (for whatever they are worth), once you are on an archer or crossbowman that ranged attacker is done shooting as long as you press your attack.

D&D is not realistic but if this bothers you I'd say a fair house rule would be that once an archer is struck (not swung at, but hit), as long as that attacker continues to attack the bow is considered fouled and inoperable.

 

[Felnar]

Throwing distances are much lower than archery distances, so you're going to practically be in melee with thrown weapons anyway. Which means you are less powerful than the melee character who has put his feats into melee things.

The power of the archer isn't in taking 5' steps and shooting. The power of the archer is in being 100-200 feet away from you and shooting at you while you make your way toward him.

again...
it only takes one feat, quickdraw
additional feats just make it better
the fighter still has like 10 feats to put into melee,
and quickdraw can help there too

throwing distances are much lower than archery distances, but,
throwing distances are much HIGHER than melee distances

full iterative thrown attacks can often be more damaging than a move/single attack.
a 5ft step and quickdraw lets you be ranged when you want, and melee when you want.
no drawing bow/storing bow required. no transition actions/time.
- Felnar

 

[Caeleddin]

Wouldn't ammo be a problem for the throwing weapon fighter?

 

[dagger]

One point on your first comment, its probablly helps to think of the combat rounds as cyclic (which they are) and not 1e/2e turn based.

If the archer can you use a bow, so can the melee guy....whats the problem? If the PCs can be archers that take dozens of 5' steps, so can the monsters....whats the problem?

A 5' step is really just a small adjustment, in a 6 second cyclic combat round when the character was too busy (or engaged) to move any further.

I don't really sweat the small stuff, especially in a High Fantasy abstract game like D&D. If I want more combat realism I would play something else.

There is a lot better things to worry about, especially casters at high levels.

apparently my point is missed yet again...

i feel it is wrong, that in the midst of melee combat, one combatent can take a 5ft step back and throw a full attack of throw weapons, and be left standing with their sword threatening their 5ft reach. All while the other combatent stands and watches (paralyzed by turn based combat).
i am not saying its better to throw stuff at your melee opponent.
i am not saying that you should step back and throw spears every round
i am saying that the written rules (how everyone else seems to like them), allow for the large tactical advantage of ranged attacks, without the downside of ranged attacks.
i see this as abusive and oh so easy to prevent, as several people on the first page suggested.


#1 you dont have to throw each round, you are exactly as good at melee as any fighter, you just have this large tactical option
#2 you threaten just as much without taking a 5ft step (because your opponent could just 5ft step back before any action that would provoke an AoO anyway). You're still holding your sword so they cant move past you without an AoO.
#3 power throw -or- dont rely on stats to make your hits
#4 you're throwing, not using a bow
#5 shortspears weigh 3lbs, you can afford to carry a few volleys worth
#6 yes, magic can do lots of things, better those than ray of exhaustion though
#7 whats better, moving/provokingAoO/single standard melee attack, or, full iterative thrown attack. choose whats best for your situation
#8 disarmed? sundered? need a certain weapon for DR? use quick draw

where is the downside of having a tactical ranged attack option?
is the fighter build so cramped that you cant spare a single feat?
- Felnar

 

[Bront]

apparently my point is missed yet again...

i feel it is wrong, that in the midst of melee combat, one combatent can take a 5ft step back and throw a full attack of throw weapons, and be left standing with their sword threatening their 5ft reach. All while the other combatent stands and watches (paralyzed by turn based combat).
i am not saying its better to throw stuff at your melee opponent.
i am not saying that you should step back and throw spears every round
i am saying that the written rules (how everyone else seems to like them), allow for the large tactical advantage of ranged attacks, without the downside of ranged attacks.
i see this as abusive and oh so easy to prevent, as several people on the first page suggested.

The build you are talking about, is specific, requires a golfbag of weapons, and is at least mid level. If you don't like this particular build, rule it down. But don't blame the system for a single build you think is problematic. It's probably not the only one given all the stuff out there.

And you're missing the single point that having to take the 5 foot step is a tactical disadvantage.

 

[moritheil]

People are forgetting what this thread is about... the fact that the free 5 foot step gives a huge advantage to ranged attackers. I'm trying to give an example of a character who can do everything the standard fighter can do, but can also instantly have all the benefits of a rangedweapon fighter without having the downside of ranged combat in melee (AoO's).

hopefully that made my point clear...
- Felnar

This is what spiked chains are for. I'm standing next to you, and I whale on you. You take a 5' step back and try to cheese me with a ranged attack, and wham, I whale on you some more. Thanks for the free hit!

Try to be less misleading in your language. Fighters do not "instantly have all the benefits" unless they take the feats, as I'm sure you realize. Those feats could have gone to learning other neat combat tricks.

 

[Coredump]

my whole point is to show that a 5ft step back, then full ranged attack is lame/unbalanced, because it costs next to nothing to be proficient in, and gives a huge tactical advantage

You are right, the attacker can choose how to attack, and that choice is an advantage. But it is balanced, because you gain something and lose something.

When the fighter decides to start throwing spears instead of swinging a sword he *gains* the advantage of being able to hit more people. It is a tactical advantage of range.

*BUT*, he gives up plenty to do it. Likely gives up damage, number of attacks, ability to get through DR, using a magical weapon, and often has a lower to hit.

Sounds like a pretty balance trade off.

a level 11 human fighter with at least 13 strength could have:
power attack
cleave
-great cleave
-improved bull rush
-shock trooper
&
quick drawpoint blank shot
-far shot
-presice shot
brutal throw
-power throw

this could act as your standard charging power attacker, but, with a simple free 5ft step back, can launch a full-iterative thrown power attack with 40ft range increment(and +1 to hit within 30). After the ranged attacks you're left holding your sword and threatening squares.

Yes he has additional tactical choices, but again, he had to give things up to get there. He gave up 6 feats that could have been used to be even more effective as a melee fighter. So he can now get a tactical range advantage, but to do so he is less of a melee fighter than he could have been.

And 5' steps don't even come into play here. They are two different arguments.