Defenders and Monsters that Swallow Whole

[WalterKovacs]

First thing ... if you are inside a creature, are you adjacent to it? Presumably, it is bigger than you, and therefore fills multiple squares, so some of the creature would be adjacent to you. That matters for at least some powers.

Still, it depends on the defender.

The paladin is probably the clearest. The paladin only needs to keep the divine challenge working ... he doesn't even need to use a reaction/interupt in order to dish out the radiant damage. Depending on whether or not the paladin counts as being adjacent to the creature, he may need to attack every turn to keep the divine challenge up.

With the fighter, it depends on a couple factors. Not all swallow wholes are the same. In the case of the shambling mound, no one has line of sight/effect to the engulfed character. So presumably, the fighter may be able to see out (or maybe it can only see/effect the mound). Presumably the mark would work either way, but the interupt depends on whether the fighter counts as adjacent AND he can 'know' about the attack to make the interupt. In the case of the Gelatinous Cube, the engulfed fighter is dazed, in which case he can't make immediate reactions so other than the -2 for the mark it won't matter anyway. In the case of the purple worm, it works similar to the shambling mound, but doesn't specify no line of effect/sight like the shambling mound does.

The swordmage doesn't have to worry about maintaining the mark, the -2 sticks. Without line of sight/effect, he can't teleport. The damage reduction on the other hand, is a bit harder. The wording is probably such that you only need line of sight/effect to the creature making the attack. If he's dazed, he can't make a reaction.

Warden depends on whether or not they are considered adjacent while 'inside' (in order to mark the enemy each turn. If they are, the -2 applies at least). The Gel Cube is again an easy answer ... dazed = no immediate action. The Warden doesn't need to see the ally, just see that the marked foe makes an attack that doesn't include him as a target.

Ultimately, the question is whether they can 'tell' that a creature is making an attack while they are inside them. In the case of the divine challenge, the paladin doesn't need to do anything other than keep the mark going. The person 'inside' the creature does have line of sight/effect to the creature they are inside, so they would presumably be able to "know" what that creature is doing. They can't really attack anything else, which would mean that they wouldn't be able to see anything else. That would mean no on the teleport power. Everything else though? Seems fair game. At least with the Gel Cube, there is an easy answer.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, as for whether or not the character can tell:

Even if you cannot see a combatant, unless they are stealthed to you, you are still aware of their position and what is going on with them. Now, the monster that swallowed you -cannot- stealth to you, because you're sharing a square with a part of them. And, your party won't stealth to you. So you do have some awareness of what is going on (by default).

Secondly, if a single square of a monster is adjacent to you, the entire monster is adjacent to you. Go Divine Challenge.

Thirdly, monsters don't block line-of-effect.

So, yes, by the rules, you -do- have some awareness of what is going on outside the monster.

 

[Nail]

It's not the marking, so much as the class feature like combat challenge. How the defender knows the monster is making an attack is the issue; he's in its stomach, so why would he get extra attacks.

The defender doesn't need to "know the monster is making an attack", or see who the monster is attacking.

Comabt Challenge: "...whenever a marked enemy that is
adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not
include you, you can make a melee basic attack against
that enemy as an immediate interrupt."

If the monster does one of thsose two things, the monster gets attacked by the fighter. Simple!

If you need some narrative to make this sit right with you, try this: "The swallowed fighter is doing whatever he can to damage the monster from the inside. The monster can lessen this damage by positioning itself appropriately -- perhaps by scrunching it's stomach muscles or tiwsting its torso, or flexing its gullet. But if the monster is busy attacking someone else, the monster can't also concentrate on the fighter-in-its-innards, so the fighter gets a free basic attack."

There. Narrative explanation done.

 

[Griogre]

The real issue in my mind is that monsters that swallow character, if they were intelligent, would ignore the defenders and eat everyone else first - which negates what a defender is. Now most things that do swallow characters are stupid - as stupid as that Tyrannosaurus Rex that ate a Triceratops head and killed himself because the head's horns pierced his guts and killed him. I also have a problem with a fighter using Combat Challenge and Superiority – because how is the fighter to know these effects have triggered? I can give the mark properties hand waving it as "indigestion" but the class abilities bother me a lot more. I'm not a hard core similatist but I like *some* reasonal relationship between cause and effect.

 

[Griogre]

The defender doesn't need to "know the monster is making an attack", or see who the monster is attacking.

Comabt Challenge: "...whenever a marked enemy that is
adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not
include you, you can make a melee basic attack against
that enemy as an immediate interrupt."

If I was a rules lawyer I would point out the fighter is not a adjacent to the monster he's *inside* the monster...

 

[WalterKovacs]

If I was a rules lawyer I would point out the fighter is not a adjacent to the monster he's *inside* the monster...

By the rules. There are going to be at least 3 squares of the monster 'adjacent' to you while you are inside 1 of the monsters squares. The monster is bigger than you, therefore at least some of the monster has to be adjacent to you.

By the 'logic', if you are swallowed/engulfed/etc you are literally surrounded by the monster. Monster to the left, monster to the right, etc ... sounds like the monster is next to you.

As for a fighter getting their attack off when the monster attacks or shifts, or stopping it with an opportunity attack if it tries to move? Well, presumably the fighter would be able to tell the difference between inside something standing still vs. something moving. Ultimately, if you are making an attack, or shifting, or moving ... you need to move your body. Thus, the fighter is able to get one 'extra' jab in per round if the creature that swallowed it doesn't keep relatively still.

 

[Nail]

As for a fighter getting their attack off when the monster attacks or shifts, or stopping it with an opportunity attack if it tries to move? Well, presumably the fighter would be able to tell the difference between inside something standing still vs. something moving. Ultimately, if you are making an attack, or shifting, or moving ... you need to move your body. Thus, the fighter is able to get one 'extra' jab in per round if the creature that swallowed it doesn't keep relatively still.

Agreed....


...although why some are obsessed with discovering "how the fighter knows the monster has attacked/moved" is beyond me. It's simply unnecessary for the fighter to know these things. If the creature shifts or attacks (not including the fighter), the fighter gets to attack. How you explain that is entirely up to you, and such explanation need not require the fighter knowing anything....other than allowing him some opportunity to attack.

Lets try it this way: If a unswallowed fighter is blinded, does he get a MBA if his marked adjacent enemy shifts?

 

[Ceraus]

Mmm... kay.

If the swallowing monster moves, does the Fighter get an opportunity attack? Even though the Fighter moves with the monster, the monster is clearly leaving a space that was adjacent to the Fighter.

And remember: the Fighter would be able to stop the movement of the swallowing creature!

Or push it with Tide of Iron, with the right feat!

(Disclaimer: I'm not anywhere near my Monster Manual, so the "swallowed" condition possibly prevents all that.)

 

[Nail]

If the swallowing monster moves, does the Fighter get an opportunity attack?

Has the conditions of Combat Superiority been satisfied?

And remember: the Fighter would be able to stop the movement of the swallowing creature!

If the fighter hits with the OA, what does he get to do?

Or push it with Tide of Iron, with the right feat!

Doesn't push require the monster to be moved away from the fighter? That might be difficult.

 

[Mort_Q]

That sounds so... Hercules. Could be fun.