Defense Bonuses & Damage Reduction/Conversion

[Frum]

Defence bonus & damage reduction/conversion

In my campaign I use defence bonuses because of the generally lower numbers and quality of defensive magical items. I did something very much like what you did, Mercule, and gave my "armor heavy" class a defence bonus equal to that of a wizard, with a class ability (at about 4th level) that allowed them to stack the relatively low defence bonus with an armor bonus from armor.

I also included some damage reduction, but a very small amount, and that only for heavy armors, so only truly dedicated armor users could benefit most. I'm not sure how well it will work out in the long term-my players tend to make characters who use little armor anyway.

But I think that you would do well to avoid the damage reduction figures as outlined in UA; with defence bonus and armor bonus stacking, it will probably be too much.

I think that it might be interesting to use a damage conversion variant, however, and have been tooling around with the idea for my next campaign. The damage conversion rules simply make armor wearers less vulnerable to lethal damage, rather than being hard to hit and hard to damage at all. I am still thinking that I will reduce the numbers however; perhaps half of what they are listed as in UA. But really, it is just to encourage armor use in my campaigns; as it is, the ability to stack the defence bonus with an armor bonus should be enough incentive, and is powerful enough to make armor worthwhile.

 

[frugal]

Nice thought, but as written even a chain shirt stops a dagger unless it is wielded by a brute! I think there needs to be more risk than that.

But then again the only 2 people wielding daggers are Mages and Rogues.

Mages are not going to do damage against a tank in either case and Rogues get sneak attack which is specifically looking for chinks in armour. A rogue doing 1d4+5d6 damage is going to prefer AC+4/DR4 over AC+8 every time.

 

[Psion]

But then again the only 2 people wielding daggers are Mages and Rogues.

This assumes you get to choose your weapons.

If you are using daggers, there is a good chance it's because you are at a disadvantage, liking having been imprisoned, in a locale that demands you check all weapons at the door, etc.

Also, see my later post above... it's not quite as bad as I thought it was. But I still prefer the idea of randomized armor DR.

 

[Woas]

I feel out of place because it seems like I am the only person on the earth that uses Damage Conversion system and not Defence Bonus and Damage Reducation.

 

[Mercule]

I feel out of place because it seems like I am the only person on the earth that uses Damage Conversion system and not Defence Bonus and Damage Reducation.

We used conversion for a session and a half before we realized that would lead to a large amount of coup-de-graces at higher level. Pretty much anytime it takes more than one hit to take something down, you're going to have subdual damage that contributes significantly to the "downing" of your foes.

The more hits it takes, the more the problem compounds. That 10th level fighter in full plate the group is facing could have 80 hps left when he drops. There really isn't any question that he's going to get back up at some point. The question is: do you want to tie him up and take him to the authorities, risk dealing with him again later, or slit his throat?

When I told my players that it might impact their alignment, it was a short trip away from damage conversion. I just couldn't shake the image from "The Patriot" when the rat-bastard British lieutenant orders all the wounded American soldiers killed at the Gibson character's mansion. That was not something I felt heroes should be doing, especially out of necessity.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I can certainly understand your players point. When you're bring hit for 3d6+15 (the amount a Fire Giant [a CR 10 critter!] does with a greatsword before any Power Attack) 4/- DR doesn't do much. Sure you're only taking 3d6+11. But when he hits you twice and hits the guy next to you without DR once, you still got whupped.

The problem with this is you are trying to prove your point using an extreme case as an example. Most creatures do not do nearly as much melee damage or hit as often as a giant does. Giants have cleric BAB and some of the highest average strengths and overall physical damage outputs in the game. CR for CR almost nothing inflicts as much physical damage as giants do.

Most creatures attack with claws, bites or slams and inflict d4 or d6 + Str (usually +2 to +4) or inflict maybe 1d10+6 with a standard bastard sword and 1 1/2 str. DR 4/- is a huge benefit against those more common ranges of damage. A farastu demodand (a nasty outsider with a CR 11 if I remember off the top of my head) inflicts something like 1d4+6 with its claws and fairly similar damage with its bite. That is much more typical of damage that characters face.

Tzarevitch

 

[Caliber]

I'll admit my example was quite extreme. In playtesting, maybe you'd be right, or maybe I would. Honestly, I have no idea 'cause I've never used this variant. My earlier post was just my guy instinct.

I am interested to hear how it plays out, however. My guy instinct might say it isn't going to work, but that doesn't mean I don't think its a cool idea anyway.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Don't know anything about the Armsman, but you could either give him a Barbarian esq DR that stacks with the armor, at the sacrifice of any new class AC bonus, (say if this were a prestige class). Or, you could give him an enhancment bonus to his AC when in any armor he is proficient/specialized in.

 

[Rafilar]

For my campaign, I'm using the armor as DR rules as written in UA, and the damage conversion rules, and the class defense rules (although I'll probably tone those down to WoT or SW levels after another week of this... they're just obscenely high in UA, and thus, in my campaign right now). And, I added on the reserve point rules... and used the Arcana Unearthed Death's Door rules... but I made the massive damage threshold quite a bit nastier...

But, I've also nerfed magical healing quite a bit. It now converts lethal damage to nonlethal damage, and takes multiple rounds to work. (1 point of lethal is converted into nonlethal damage per level of the healing spell per round.) Also, druids heal less effectively than clerics (fraction of caster level instead of full caster level).

So far, combats last longer, and no one tries to heal during combat. Other than that, hasn't made much of a difference yet. Thing is, I've only been doing this for 10 days so far (or, 3 games), and we're only 4th level. We'll see more as time goes on.

 

[Mercule]

Don't know anything about the Armsman, but you could either give him a Barbarian esq DR that stacks with the armor, at the sacrifice of any new class AC bonus, (say if this were a prestige class). Or, you could give him an enhancment bonus to his AC when in any armor he is proficient/specialized in.

Armsman replaces Fighter in WoT. The only differences are that the Armsman has 4 skills per level, loses a feat or two (still pretty much looks like a Fighter), and the Armsman has the special ability to stack armor with class defense. All classes in WoT get class-based defense.

Serously, that's all that's different. It's just a setting-tweaked fighter.