D&D 5E Define Advantage and Disadvantage and when it should be used

Sadrik

First Post
So what are all the instances that it gets used in the game. I was going through and there are several instances of its use that I think dont make any sense. Non-proficiency should not be an instance of advantage/disadvantage for instance. When I saw that I was thinking so should it be used for skills if used for weapons?

My thought is that it should only be used for what used to be circumstantial modifiers back in the older editions. But it appears that it is being used as a catchall for modifiers. Due to it not stacking with other modifiers perhaps its scope should be limited somewhat? For instance if you do not have proficiency in a weapon and you are burdened by a heavy load. You still only get disadvantage...

This leads me to why not put it in as the skill system. Disadvantage for not having the trained only skill, straight roll for skilled, and advantage for skill mastery. DCs would need to be tailored a bit to match that dynamic but could be good.

Barring that idea, there are a lot of instances where advantage and disadvantage are written in the rules and it seems like the scope of its use is sometimes not correctly applied. Are their any instances that stand out as not right and might be better served with a modifier?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm not 100% up on this in the latest playtest, but no one else is chiming in.

There's a few combat mechanics that will allow you to gain advantage. Including attacking someone who doesn't know you're there, and I believe attacking someone who is prone is also a situation that would trigger Advantage. They've said that most characters will have to take a turn to gain advantage, so you won't be able to do it turn after turn, but perhaps every other turn. I have a feeling we''ll see little abilities that act like a sort of martial cantrip (small bonus), but give advantage to your next attack.

Remember that its around +4/-4 to your roll, so its quite powerful. I can't remember how it interacts with skills at the moment, but that systems apparently being rewritten anyway.

Other than that, I think its a fairly open mechanic, as a GM, you can hand it out generously or sparingly, its up to you. Usually in dramatic spots, someone has a really good idea, or some instance where a modifier just isn't obvious. Maybe a PC is trying to convince a family member to do something for them, the familial connection could give that PC an advantage in that situation.
 

I think a quick way to resolve the issues with stacking is to say something like double disadvantage makes something impossible, though that might be a bit harsh. Think of it this way, are your chances of hitting an invisible creature any worse with a weapon you're not familiar with? I don't think so, so I'm happy that double disadvantage is just disadvantage. Similarly, a blind person is no worse off attacking an invisible creature. The other way round, if you're invisible and you want to attack a prone creature, are you more likely to hit than if they were standing? Not much? That's less clear.

So it might be a bit jarring, but I guess *triple* advantage or disadvantage could be ruled as auto-hit and auto-miss, if you don't want to just increase the number of d20s rolled (which I can see as a popular house rule).
 

Remember that its around +4/-4 to your roll, so its quite powerful.
It's closer to 3.5, and if you allow stacking advantages (and disadvantages), there is another grand advantage to this mechanic: the average change is smaller with each extra die. The more consistent change is the odds of yielding a specific number (like a 20), and, in most cases, this is an acceptable benefit for having many "advantages." If you want, I can look up the actual numbers.

Other than that, I think its a fairly open mechanic, as a GM, you can hand it out generously or sparingly, its up to you.
I would hand it out instead of every other advantage that a roll can garner. The feeling of rolling extra dice is a good one, much better than a paltry +2, it requires less arithmetic and "tracking" than a static bonus, and the statistical benefit is comparable.
 

Player: [Insert smart idea]
DM: You gain advantage!

This is in addition to defined advantages, but there weren't many in the earliest versions of the playtest. Isn't there a pseudo flanking rule now?

Ferghis said:
It's closer to 3.5
For a second, I thought you were talking about an edition. I was confused for a bit.
 



Here are the real numbers, for the sake of precision:

The average of 2d20 (take the highest) is 13.83, an increase of 3.33 over the average of 1d20. The odds of rolling one 20 on at least one of the dice is 9.75%, which is an increase of 4.75% over the odds when rolling 1d20.

The average of 3d20 (take the highest) is 15.49, an increase of 1.66 over the average of 2d20 (take the highest). The odds of rolling one 20 on at least one of the dice is 14.26%, which is an increase of 4.51% over the odds when rolling 2d20.

The average of 4d20 (take the highest) is 16.48, an increase of 1.00 over the average of 3d20 (take the highest). The odds of rolling one 20 on at least one of the dice is 18.55%, which is an increase of 4.29% over the odds when rolling 3d20.
 


So what are all the instances that it gets used in the game.

...

Are their any instances that stand out as not right and might be better served with a modifier?

I have doubts since a year ago about advantage/disadvantage being a good rule...

Clearly, it is easier than stacking modifiers, and it appears to me that the main reason why it was introduced to the game was exactly to replace modifiers, so that people would stop complaining about having to track bonuses from multiple sources, which ones stack and which not, changing every round of combat, keeping tracks of when they expire etc...

This is where advantage/disadvantage works better than circumstance modifiers, but this is also where its benefits end.

---

Let's keep in mind that advantage(disadvantage) has the following simple effect: it improves (decreases) your chance of success at what you can already do.

Circumstance bonus/penalties have the same general effect plus an additional effect: they allow you do things you normally can't (or in case of penalty, they prevent you from doing things you normally can).

This is a very important difference! However, which one is better for the game? To be honest, I don't think there is a universal answer! It all depends how you see it... IMHO it's a matter of preferences.

There is also a difference in magnitude: advantage(disadvantage) always comes in the same magnitude because it doesn't stack, while circumstance modifiers can be anything you want. Which one is better? Once again a matter of preference, if you favor simplicity you don't need fiddly numbers and a fixed "better chance" is enough, if you favor fiddly bits then you need fiddly bits for more variety.

Keep in mind that we don't have to have 3e circumstance modifiers, with all the multitude of "types" for stacking or not stacking. For a more fair comparison, we should compare advantage/disadvantage against fixed circumstance modifiers (such as e.g. a fixed +3/-3 that never stack with each other). In this case, there is nothing that works in favor of advantage/disadvantage or circumstance modifiers. They would work both well enough, the only (important!!) difference being having or not having the possibility of doing something you normally couldn't (pick your favourite).

---

What doesn't sound good to me about advantage/disadvantage is just that it happens too often in the game.

There are basically two broad methods of getting advantage on something:

1- improvise a description of your PC's actions that impresses as a clever use of the circumstances

2- use a specific ability that by the rules always grants advantage (can be your own PC's ability such as a spell, or a general combat action etc... anything codified by the RAW as granting advantage)

The danger of 1- is that it can be too easy. The first time you play, Bob has a nice idea of using his shield to reflect the light of the sun against the eyes of an enemy: kewlz!! you deserve advantage! After trying a few more different kewlz ideas, and perhaps sometimes meeting DM's disapproval, Bob resorts to the same "shield reflect trick" because it worked once, so it has to work again, otherwise the DM is not running the game consistently! Now Bob pretends to make it always work, as long as there is a shield in hand and a sun in the sky. The DM has two alternatives: engage in a game of wit against Bob trying to nerf his tactics, or plain anc clear say she is changing the ruling because now it's boring. This is not so nice.

The danger of 2- is that again the game could be literally bloated by stuff granting you advantage/disadvantage, because it is so easy now for a designer who is designing a spell/ability/item/environmental rule, be stuck with "uhm... what should this give?" and think "but of course, let's put advantage/disadvantage somewhere! piece of cake". How many things in the current packet already grant advantage on attack rolls? Wait until the first few splatbooks, and see that number multiply... and since these are given by the RAW, the DM has little to say on this regard. So now the contest becomes for everybody to find ways to grant themselves advantage and ways to grant the opponent disadvantage. If the game ends up having too many cases for these, the most common case could become that they almost always cancel each other out: net results would be quite the same as not having any advantage/disadvantage at all.

I don't think the current situation is that bad, but I'm trying to express my concerns on how the game might develop after a few months of gaming with the same group and a few published splatbooks later. Think of this as some kind of "asymptotic concerns" :D

At least my feelings are that 1- should be allowed (as a rule of thumb) only in a Basic game where the material for 2- is probably more scarce, and anyway the utmost care should be taken by the DM to require the player to take advantage of very specific and hard-to-repeat circumstances, that strongly depend on what is going on around at a specific time and place, not granting advantage for an idea that is too much based on the PC alone (such as the reflecting shield example above... it really depends only on the PC to have a shield, the only requirement of being outside during a sunny day is way too weak). Once the game moves from Basic to Standard, the occurrence of method 1- should be as rare as possible. Unfortunately, the occurrence of method 2- is entirely in the hands of the designers.

As a final word, notice that all these problems would be exactly the same if we had circumstance modifiers instead of advantage/disadvantage. Therefore the problem is not in the advantage/disadvantage mechanics itself, but in how it is too frequently applied.
 

Remove ads

Top