Deflect Arrows

[c0mA]

A fighter without rapid shot is not an archery-focused PC by any stretch of the imagination. It would be similar to making a monk who couldn't flurry.

That is irrelevant to the discussion of Deflect Arrows and I fail to see your point. In the party I used as an example, that fighter IS an archery-focused PC, being the only PC using ranged attacks. Just because your archery-focused PCs all have to have the same Feat string doesn't mean the next person has to do that. Certain role playing reasons might have made it necessary for that fighter to take a different Feat; you just never know right?

So back to relevance and the discussion of Deflect Arrows:

My point was...

like deflecting an arrow coming in at you @ 300'/sec (200mph av.) when you are in melee with three orcs, two of which are flanking you. sure its a feat, but for a first level character to be able to accomplish this is unbalancing using RAW.

And, at 6th-level, the ability to block all damage goes away.

What does that have to do with levels 1-5? Anyway, I'm talking about the act of deflecting an arrow in the above circumstance. I simply stated that it seams unbalancing for a 1st level character to be able to accomplish what I have shown the RAW supports. An opposed roll of some sort makes it level-dependent, that's all.

 

[Abstraction]

We should have opposed rolls to cancel out Weapon Specialization. Or opposed rolls to get in attacks without AoO for Improved Trip/Sunder/Grapply/Unarmed Strike. After all, that is a feat that allows a character to avoid an attack from an enemy EVERY ROUND! Even worse than Deflect Arrows, it puts the character in charge of avoiding the attack!

Listen, when it comes right down to it, a character with Deflect Arrows is basically sitting around waiting for it to be useful, which is the opposite of most feats. A monk fighting monsters almost never gets to use it. In fact, if somebody in my campaign took this feat, I would contrive situations where he gets to use it, just so he can feel good about his character.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

That is irrelevant to the discussion of Deflect Arrows and I fail to see your point. In the party I used as an example, that fighter IS an archery-focused PC, being the only PC using ranged attacks. Just because your archery-focused PCs all have to have the same Feat string doesn't mean the next person has to do that. Certain role playing reasons might have made it necessary for that fighter to take a different Feat; you just never know right?

So the fact that your fighter has chosen to forgo archery prowess in favor of roleplaying feat choices, and is therefore stymied by Deflect Arrows, means that Deflect Arrows is overpowered? If a wizard chooses to take nothing but [Fire] spells for roleplaying purposes, does that suddenly make Energy Immunity overpowered? The counter is there, and easily accessible, even if some characters choose not to make use of it.

What does that have to do with levels 1-5? Anyway, I'm talking about the act of deflecting an arrow in the above circumstance.

The point is that Rapid Shot is available at level 1, and at level 6 you don't even need that anymore to still do damage vs. a target with Deflect Arrows.

I simply stated that it seams unbalancing for a 1st level character to be able to accomplish what I have shown the RAW supports. An opposed roll of some sort makes it level-dependent, that's all.

You're comparing one character who's chosen to invest in a feat to defeat 1 ranged attack each round, against another character who has chosen not to invest in a feat to gain one extra ranged attack per round. You don't see how this comparison is skewed?

* Bob chooses not to focus on ranged offense.
* Fred chooses not to focus on ranged defense.

Result: Bob can shoot Fred once per round.

* Bob chooses to focus on ranged offense, takes Rapid Shot.
* Fred chooses to focus in ranged defense, takes Deflect Arrows.

Result: Bob can shoot Fred once per round.

In any other scenario where one has focused on ranged offense/defense and the other hasn't, the one who's focused deserves to be better at it. They've invested a feat into being so! And after level 6, the offensive character doesn't even need the feat.

 

[Infiniti2000]

In any other scenario where one has focused on ranged offense/defense and the other hasn't, the one who's focused deserves to be better at it. They've invested a feat into being so! And after level 6, the offensive character doesn't even need the feat.

Well said. When Patryn used the term archery-focused, I correctly assumed archery-focused and not merely "the only PC using ranged attacks." Which, by the way, is likely contributing to your problem with respect to deflect arrows. If only PC has ranged attacks, there will be problems when you can only fight an opponent with ranged attacks. It's not a wrong decision to focus the whole party thusly (though possibly poor tactics), but then when you get your tails kicked by a ranged opponent, don't complain.

 

[Shape D.]

20th level fighter: BAB 20, Dex 23, Bracers of archery, gloves of dex +6, point blank shot, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, +5 Mighty lo0ngbow str4, and a natural die roll of 20.

20+6+2+3+1+1+1+5+20= an attack roll of 59

2nd level monk ac 13 - Blocks arrow with no problem whatsoever.

Result lame.

Although he would murdalize him with his next 3 attacks.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

20th level fighter: BAB 20, Dex 23, Bracers of archery, gloves of dex +6, point blank shot, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, +5 Mighty lo0ngbow str4, and a natural die roll of 20.

20+6+2+3+1+1+1+5+20= an attack roll of 59

2nd level monk ac 13 - Blocks arrow with no problem whatsoever.

...20th level fighter fires another 4 arrows. Die rolls of 2, 2, 2, 2. All four hit. Monk gasps and dies.

Result not lame in the slightest.

 

[Infiniti2000]

20th level monk with a base reflex save of +12, a Dex of 29 (including gloves), a cloak of resistance +5, stone of good luck, and lightning reflexes as a reflex save modifier of +29.

An 8-year-old kid with a strength of a 7 and a Dex of 8 lobs a small rock, underhanded, at the monk. Rolling a natural 20, but failing to confirm. He does 1d2 (e.g.) -2 = 1 point of damage.

The monk rolls a natural 1 reflex save (old system).

Result lame.

 

[Shape D.]

Note to self: both results lame.

Oh well, at least there's feinting. Invisible blade here I come.

Feinting as a free action sounds fun.

 

[Storyteller01]

Note: this would however give you the benifit of blocking more than one ranged weapon per round in conjunction with Combat reflexes.

Not that that's a bad thing.

 

[c0mA]

We should have opposed rolls to cancel out Weapon Specialization. Or opposed rolls to get in attacks without AoO for Improved Trip/Sunder/Grapply/Unarmed Strike. After all, that is a feat that allows a character to avoid an attack from an enemy EVERY ROUND! Even worse than Deflect Arrows, it puts the character in charge of avoiding the attack!
Listen, when it comes right down to it, a character with Deflect Arrows is basically sitting around waiting for it to be useful, which is the opposite of most feats. A monk fighting monsters almost never gets to use it. In fact, if somebody in my campaign took this feat, I would contrive situations where he gets to use it, just so he can feel good about his character.

Avoiding an AoO IMO is a totally different thing. It occurs on your turn.

Deflect Arrows, on the other hand, occurs during everyone elses turn where a round like the following can occur...

like deflecting an arrow coming in at you @ 300'/sec (200mph av.) when you are in melee with three orcs, two of which are flanking you. sure its a feat, but for a first level character to be able to accomplish this is unbalancing using RAW.

So the fact that your fighter has chosen to forgo archery prowess in favor of roleplaying feat choices, and is therefore stymied by Deflect Arrows, means that Deflect Arrows is overpowered?

Fighters don't choose 'roleplaying' feats, players do, so no, the feat selection of said fighter has nothing to do with Deflect Arrows in the RAW being overpowered. I believe it is overpowered because of the scenario above.

You don't see how this comparison is skewed?

No I don't, because the scenario above shows the inequality of the two feats you mention.

Regardless of being 6th level or not and having iterative attacks, it would be a shame for an archer to waste his one magical arrow that he was saving to take out the BBEG when that first shot has no chance of hitting whatsoever. An opposed roll adds an element of chance.

Like I said before, my group House Rules Deflect Arrows for the reasons inherent in the scenario above. That scenario is just one example (and it might not even be a good one; there are plenty more) of why we do it. I'm not saying your group should adopt it.