Deities & Demigods continued

[LordMelkor{Talos}]

Thanks Poilibrun! Shame that I am not going to have this book for a time! I am also interested in Divine Creation and Create Object/ Greater Object- what are the benefits?

 

[Great Umbrage]

You'd think it would be safe to assume that any deity with the Alter Reality ability has already given himself the maximum amount of inherent bonuses to his ability scores. He'd be rather foolish not to, don't you think?

But then that reasoning breaks down because...
1) You must have a Cha of 29 to have Alter Reality, and...
2) As soon as you have Alter Reality, why wouldn't you give yourself a +5 inherent bonus to Cha, thus raising it to 34?
3) Leading us to ask, why would any deity have a Cha of only 29 when he could have 34? Are the deities "born" with a +5 inherent bonus pre-built into their ability scores, thereby rendering them unable to raise them further with wishes?

It seems like a LOT of deities in the book have a Cha of 29. Boccob, Corellon Larethian, Ehlonna, Erythnul, Gruumsh, Hextor, Kord, Kurtulmak, Moradin, Nerull, Pelor, St. Cuthbert, Tiamat, Vecna and Wee Jas all have Charisma scores of 29, and they all have Alter Reality. That's two thirds of the pantheon who have put just enough points into Charisma (even the deities consider it a dump stat apparently) to qualify for the uber-flexible Alter Reality ability. They all have it, and the other eight deities that I didn't mention have Cha scores higher than 29, and they have Alter Reality as well. I'm not going to bother looking through the other pantheons in the book, since I imagine I'll see a similar pattern with them as well.

It would seem that Min/Max'ing is a popular hobby amongst the ranks of deities as well as mortals.

The Cha29 was probably put in there to allow them an avatar. The designers might not have thought about inherent bonuses, etc. Oh, and they forgot Zeus can't have an avatar.

 

[Thraxus]

Arcane Mastery
The deity can prepare wizard spells without consulting a spellbook.
Prerequisites: Spellcaster level 1st, Int 29, Spell Mastery
Benefit: The deity can prepare any wizard spell that it can cast without using a spellbook.
Notes: This ability gives the deity access to every spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list, provided that the deity has sufficient wizard levels and a sufficient Intelligence score to cast them. The deity also can invent new sorcerer/wizard spells without researching them.
Suggested Portfolio Elements: Knowledge, Magic

In short, you have all the spells, and need no spellbook to prepare them.

[edit: one typo]

Which is nice, but you do can do all that and more using Alter Reality, and the only prerequisite for that is Cha 29. In fact, about the only reason I could see a deity using his spellcasting abilities instead of Alter Reality would be to use quickened spells, since Alter Reality is always a standard action.

The DC to save against a spell created using Alter Reality is never less than 29, since it consists of 20 + Divine Rank + Charisma modifier, and you need at least a 29 in Charisma to have that ability in the first place.

Take Boccob for example. The DC to save against a 9th level spell cast by him is 39. Its calculated as 10 + Level of Spell (9) + Int bonus (20). If he creates the same spell effect using Alter Reality, the DC is 46, calculated as 20 + Divine Rank (17) + Cha bonus (9).

Someone please point out a serious drawback to using Alter Reality to the exclusion of all other spellcasting before I lose my mind.

 

[Thraxus]

The Cha29 was probably put in there to allow them an avatar. The designers might not have thought about inherent bonuses, etc. Oh, and they forgot Zeus can't have an avatar.

Good point, I forgot that Avatar had a prereq of Cha 29 as well. However even as a Divine Rank 1 Demigod, I could still have a Cha of 29 and have Alter Reality and cast Miracle all day long with no limits. Its readily available to all gods except Quasi-Deities.

The bit about Zeus seems like a nasty blunder. It's not like the Cha score is just a typo, since they don't list Avatar as one of his Salient Divine Abilities. But Zeus without an Avatar just wouldn't be right, IMHO.

 

[Thraxus]

Check this out...

Alter Size
The deity can change size.
Benefit: As a free action, the deity can assume any size from Fine to Colossal. The deity also can change the size of up to 100 pounds of objects it touches. If the deity has a familiar, personal mount, or personal intelligent weapon, the creature can change size with the deity if the deity touches it, but its weight counts against the deity's weight limit. This is a supernatural ability.
Notes: This ability allows the deity to assume any proportions from the size of a grain of sand up or as much as 1,600 feet tall.
A radical change in size can have great impact on the deity's combat ability. The deity's Strength, Armor Class, attack bonus, and damage dealt with weapons changes according to the size the deity assumes, as shown on the accompanying tables. The deity's Strength score can never be reduced to less than 1 through this ability.
Also note that the use of this divine ability does not affect all the deities' characteristics (such as Dexterity, Constitution, etc).

1,600 feet tall?! Colossal size creatures are defined as being 64 ft. or more. Are they trying to say that if I start out 6 feet tall (Medium Size) grow 64 feet tall (Colossal Size), my Strength increases by +32 (as listed on the tables), but that if I grow another 1,536 feet in height there is no further increase in my physical strength? You'd think that additional size categories would be in order in a situation like this.

Each of the existing size category increases are based on a doubling of the previous category's dimensions. Each size increase from Medium on up also includes a Str increase of 8 points and a doubling of the Atk/AC penalties. What happens if we extrapolate that from the 64 foot Colossal size to 1,600 feet?

That's four additional size increases, assuming the following extrapolation...

Colossal (64 ft.-128 ft.)
Misc. Size 1 (128 ft.-256 ft.)
Misc. Size 2 (256 ft.-512 ft.)
Misc. Size 3 (512 ft.-1,024 ft.)
Humongous (1,024 ft.-2,048 ft.) here's where our 1,600 foot deity fits in

So extrapolating from the table in the book, four additional size increases gives me a total Str bonus of 64 instead of 32, and Atk/AC penalties of -128!! A blind Lvl 1 Commoner could hit him! This is the equivalent of something 1/4 of an inch in height attacking my foot, its a no-miss situation. Of course, something that small shouldn't be able to do much damage either, so it ends up somewhat imbalanced since the size increase doesn't affect my Con or hit points.

It also would seem a simple matter for me to step on the offending insect and crush it, which is contradicted by my -128 penalty to hit. Since by extrapolating the tables in the book, I should weigh over 1 million tons, a single hit should guarantee instant death for the little mortal that was attacking my toe.

I should also have a reach of 45 ft. and a face of 640 ft. by 640 ft. I therefore threaten a grand total of 2,385 squares surrounding me on a standard 5 ft./square grid. This isn't counting the 16,384 squares that I take up myself. A mortal PC would have a difficult time getting outside my reach.

Geez, you'd need a map at least 12'x12' just to be able to run a combat with miniatures using a full size deity. The DM could stand on the map himself to represent the deity during combat, but he wouldn't be big enough to act as an accurate representation of the actual space taken by the humongous god. You'd need a 10'x10' block of.. something.. to represent the god..

Anyone ever notice that size increases apparently do not affect your speed? Since I start out as a Medium Size deity, apparently I can still only walk at a rate of 60 ft., even though one stride of my massive legs should far exceed that. I guess I'm taking baby steps. Might be hard to keep your balance at that size.

Hey wait. Assuming I had the minimum Str score of 24 (generally agreed upon by most people in this thread thus far) and gained the 64 point Str bonus, that gives me a Str score of 88. Going by the Carrying Capacity chart on page 142 of the Players Handbook, the most I can carry is about 2,800 tons. I weigh over 1 million tons. An average mortal weight 150 lbs with a Str of 10 can carry up to two thirds of his body weight, 100 lbs. I, as the Humongous Deity of Impossible Size, can only carry less than one quarter of a percent of my own body weight.

Maybe I can't even hold up my own body weight! Maybe upon reaching my full size, I collapse under my own weight... perhaps that explains my terrible Atk/AC penalties and my pitiful movement rate.

Hey, now I'm laying horizontal. That changes my reach from 45 ft. to 25 ft. and my facing to 640 ft. by 1280 ft. I only threaten 1,985 squares this way on a 5 ft./square grid, so at least you stand a better chance of escaping my reach.

Some people have commented that the d20 system breaks down at high power levels. I contend that it also breaks down at insane size levels.

And before you ask, no, I don't have anything better to do.

 

[poilbrun]

1,600 feet tall?! Colossal size creatures are defined as being 64 ft. or more. Are they trying to say that if I start out 6 feet tall (Medium Size) grow 64 feet tall (Colossal Size), my Strength increases by +32 (as listed on the tables), but that if I grow another 1,536 feet in height there is no further increase in my physical strength? You'd think that additional size categories would be in order in a situation like this.

Each of the existing size category increases are based on a doubling of the previous category's dimensions. Each size increase from Medium on up also includes a Str increase of 8 points and a doubling of the Atk/AC penalties. What happens if we extrapolate that from the 64 foot Colossal size to 1,600 feet?

That's four additional size increases, assuming the following extrapolation...

Colossal (64 ft.-128 ft.)
Misc. Size 1 (128 ft.-256 ft.)
Misc. Size 2 (256 ft.-512 ft.)
Misc. Size 3 (512 ft.-1,024 ft.)
Humongous (1,024 ft.-2,048 ft.) here's where our 1,600 foot deity fits in

So extrapolating from the table in the book, four additional size increases gives me a total Str bonus of 64 instead of 32, and Atk/AC penalties of -128!! A blind Lvl 1 Commoner could hit him! This is the equivalent of something 1/4 of an inch in height attacking my foot, its a no-miss situation. Of course, something that small shouldn't be able to do much damage either, so it ends up somewhat imbalanced since the size increase doesn't affect my Con or hit points.

It also would seem a simple matter for me to step on the offending insect and crush it, which is contradicted by my -128 penalty to hit. Since by extrapolating the tables in the book, I should weigh over 1 million tons, a single hit should guarantee instant death for the little mortal that was attacking my toe.

I should also have a reach of 45 ft. and a face of 640 ft. by 640 ft. A mortal PC would have a difficult time getting outside my reach.

Anyone ever notice that size increases apparently do not affect your speed? Since I start out as a Medium Size deity, apparently I can still only walk at a rate of 60 ft., even though one stride of my massive legs should far exceed that. I guess I'm taking baby steps. Might be hard to keep your balance at that size.

Some people have commented that the d20 system breaks down at high power levels. I contend that it also breaks down at insane size levels.

And before you ask, no, I don't have anything better to do.

Don't you have anything better to do?

Seriously, I wouldn't answer your post just to say that! Maybe the speed comes from the fact that it now takes a lot longer to move the mass of your leg (which must be awfully heavy!), meaning you can only make one stride per round? If I ever had to create such a large creature, I'd sure give him a better speed (a 6' human can easily make a 3' stride, so a 1600' humanoid creature should be able to make a 800' stride), a lot more hit points and an unbelievable natural armor increase (if a 6 foot human becomes 1600 ft, it means his size was multiplied by approx. 267, which means the density of his skin was also multiplied by 267...). However, as this SDA is only intended for gods and it is strictly said that other characteristics do not change, I believe it would be stupid to be that tall, except for show (I'd certainly be impressed by a 1600' tall deity, even if the it would suck in a fight!)...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ability Scores

Hi all!

Inherent bonuses could be it (in most cases).....It says in the DMG (page 177) that "characters are limited to a total inherent bonus of +5."

They mean a total inherant bonus to one ability is limited to a bonus of +5.

Its definately +5 maximum each ability score!

So- inherent bonuses could be it. I mean, hell, they are gods. And they could easily wish a score up by +5. And this accounts for any diety that is +1 to +5 off the formula. The others (those that are +6 or greater which I believe is only one or two) either get additional bonuses elsewhere or it is simply a typo (which is possible considering the sheer size of the volume and the massive amounts of number crunching that went into the book).

I posted this on the Wizards boards a few days ago (in response to how to determine ability scores after Divine Ascension):

1. Add a Divine Bonus of +6 to each ability score.
2. Add an Inherant Bonus of +5 to each ability score; checked against previous wishes or ability enhancing books (God scores must already incorporate these bonuses!).
3. Then distribute +21 points as you see fit (probably not a wise idea to min/max here (too much) - you would likely leave yourself vulnerable in certain areas).

eg.
The NPC fighter example in the DMG, at 20th-level.
STR: 20 (26*)
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 8

...after ascension (Divine Rank 0)

STR: 37 (43*)
DEX: 27
CON: 28
INT: 24
WIS: 26
CHA: 22

*Belt of Strength +6

 

[Upper_Krust]

Alter Size: Ability Scores

Hi Thraxus!

1,600 feet tall?! Colossal size creatures are defined as being 64 ft. or more. Are they trying to say that if I start out 6 feet tall (Medium Size) grow 64 feet tall (Colossal Size), my Strength increases by +32 (as listed on the tables), but that if I grow another 1,536 feet in height there is no further increase in my physical strength? You'd think that additional size categories would be in order in a situation like this.

Presumably this must therefore be a Supernatural Ability for show - rather than for practical purposes - otherwise it would affect ability scores.

Each of the existing size category increases are based on a doubling of the previous category's dimensions. Each size increase from Medium on up also includes a Str increase of 8 points and a doubling of the Atk/AC penalties.

If you wanted to get technical the strength increase should be proportional to the square root of the mass increase.

(Remember that in D&D x2 Str = +5)

So...

x8 Mass (Large) = x2.8 str = +7 in D&D
x64 Mass (Huge) = x8 str = +15 in D&D
x512 Mass (Gargantuan) x22.6 = +22 in D&D
x4096 Mass (Colossal) x64 = +30 in D&D

So the +8 is probably an easier average.

What happens if we extrapolate that from the 64 foot Colossal size to 1,600 feet?

That's four additional size increases, assuming the following extrapolation...

Colossal (64 ft.-128 ft.)
Misc. Size 1 (128 ft.-256 ft.)
Misc. Size 2 (256 ft.-512 ft.)
Misc. Size 3 (512 ft.-1,024 ft.)
Humongous (1,024 ft.-2,048 ft.) here's where our 1,600 foot deity fits in

For the sake of this example lets say:

Colossal (64 ft.-128 ft.)
Enormous (128 ft.-256 ft.)
Gigantic (256 ft.-512 ft.)
Titanic (512 ft.-1,024 ft.)
Humongous (1,024 ft.-2,048 ft.)

So extrapolating from the table in the book, four additional size increases gives me a total Str bonus of 64 instead of 32, and Atk/AC penalties of -128!! A blind Lvl 1 Commoner could hit him! This is the equivalent of something 1/4 of an inch in height attacking my foot, its a no-miss situation. Of course, something that small shouldn't be able to do much damage either, so it ends up somewhat imbalanced since the size increase doesn't affect my Con or hit points.

Constitution perhaps shouldn't be affected.

Hit Dice would probably be doubled per size category though.

Dexterity should perhaps be reduced by 5 per size category. (You could argue to a minimum 10...maybe)

It also would seem a simple matter for me to step on the offending insect and crush it, which is contradicted by my -128 penalty to hit.

Which is why technically Hit Dice should be doubled, not constitution.

Although this is the greatest mistake of D&D 3rd Ed. that it still equates HD with skill/BAB - which is lunacy.

eg. Giants should have rubbish BAB; rarely hitting; but when they do hit...*splat*

Give all giants a BAB of +1, but make their Damage Dice equal to the square root of their mass increase.

eg.
Hill Giant (large) Greatclub 3d10 base
eg.
Titan (huge) Warhammer 16d6 base

Make Con = HD
Make Dex Bonus = Skill (to hit)

In fact ignore all the above I am flying off at a tangent!

Since by extrapolating the tables in the book, I should weigh over 1 million tons, a single hit should guarantee instant death for the little mortal that was attacking my toe.

You would probably develop your own gravity with noticeable effects

Geez, you'd need a map at least 12'x12' just to be able to run a combat with miniatures using a full size deity. The DM could stand on the map himself to represent the deity during combat, but he wouldn't be big enough to act as an accurate representation of the actual space taken by the humongous god. You'd need a 10'x10' block of.. something.. to represent the god..

In fact you could represent the god yourself by standing on the gaming table!

Anyone ever notice that size increases apparently do not affect your speed? Since I start out as a Medium Size deity, apparently I can still only walk at a rate of 60 ft., even though one stride of my massive legs should far exceed that. I guess I'm taking baby steps. Might be hard to keep your balance at that size.

Speed should probably increase as per the square root of the size increase.

eg.
x2 size (not mass) = x1.4 (lets say x1.5) speed
x4 size = x2 speed
x8 size = x2.8 (lets say x3) speed
x16 size (colossal) = x4 speed

Hey wait. Assuming I had the minimum Str score of 24 (generally agreed upon by most people in this thread thus far) and gained the 64 point Str bonus, that gives me a Str score of 88. Going by the Carrying Capacity chart on page 142 of the Players Handbook, the most I can carry is about 2,800 tons. I weigh over 1 million tons. An average mortal weight 150 lbs with a Str of 10 can carry up to two thirds of his body weight, 100 lbs. I, as the Humongous Deity of Impossible Size, can only carry less than one quarter of a percent of my own body weight.

Maybe I can't even hold up my own body weight! Maybe upon reaching my full size, I collapse under my own weight... perhaps that explains my terrible Atk/AC penalties and my pitiful movement rate.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

At the Site Index, scroll down to 'Science' and click 'Size Matters'. Near the bottom of that page is a discussion on Godzilla; Giant Insects and 50ft Women (as per 'B-Movies').

Taken from Mike Wong's website
Godzilla

Hey, what discussion of B-movies would be complete without the almighty Godzilla? You can't help but love the big guy ... he crushes buildings, he has fire breath, and he shakes off artillery like a gentle rain. What's not to love?
But would he hold together? Godzilla has varied in size over the years, but let's look at his huge, 100 metre tall early 90's incarnation. That huge Godzilla is around 60,000 tons by most accounts, and if you scale him down to human size (accounting for his bulky shape) this figure seems plausible.

Now, would he hold up? When he stands, all of his weight rests on the bones in his legs. If we use the proportional thickness of the human femur as a basis for comparison, he would have to support his enormous weight on bones which have 3.5 m² of cross-sectional area at their narrowest point. And here's the bad news: 60,000 tons supported by 3.5 m² works out to a compressive stress of more than 170 MPa, or nearly twice the ultimate compressive strength of bone (note that I'm not even accounting for the fact that he can walk and jump, which will produce much higher stresses than merely standing still).

Moral of the story? Godzilla shouldn't survive. His bones should shatter, his epidermis should rip open like an overinflated water balloon, and his guts should spill all over the streets of Tokyo. Alternatively, if we decide to suspend disbelief, we can only look at him and speculate that he must have bones of structural steel and skin like armour plate. Oddly enough, this means that the more "realistic" fleshy and vulnerable Godzilla in the recent Matthew Broderick film is actually less realistic. If Godzilla exists at all, he must be quite literally built like a tank.

All hail Godzilla! King of the monsters.

Hey, now I'm laying horizontal. That changes my reach from 45 ft. to 25 ft. and my facing to 640 ft. by 1280 ft. I only threaten 1,985 squares this way on a 5 ft./square grid, so at least you stand a better chance of escaping my reach.

Your best attack would be falling over...as with Talos in Jason & the Argonauts.

Some people have commented that the d20 system breaks down at high power levels. I contend that it also breaks down at insane size levels.

Admittedly they should have determined the power and size increases (to infinity) when they initially designed the system.

And before you ask, no, I don't have anything better to do.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

@ Upper_Krust

Just a question for your suggestions to ability raises on ascending to Divine Rank...

How did you arrive at those bonus values? +21 to freely designate...1 for every level until 20 and 1 for the ascension? How did you make them up? Because I´m sitting here, thinking about checking my Immortal Set later, if it´s convertible to 3e...

If it´s not touching your own work, of course.

 

[Buddha the DM]

After the first 20 total levels, BAB scales +1/2 levels (as per a wizard) for ALL characters.

20 HD Outsider = +20
20th-level Monk = +10
Divine Rank 1 = +1

BAB: +31/+26/+21/+16 (armed)
BAB: +31/+28/+25/+22/+19* (unarmed)

*I think (see below).

The BAB you have at 20th-level 'fixes' the number of attacks you have (permanently) - however, that said, perhaps a (20th-level) monk would still gain 5/round since Monk unarmed BAB works differently..?

Thanks. Could someone reverse engineer Re-Horakhty's BAB to see if this is true.