D&D 5E Delivering on the Promise in the Pages

innerdude

Legend
This may not immediately seem like a "D&D Next" specific thread, but hear me out.

The question I have is, based solely on a "read through," what RPG system most closely delivers the "play experience" outlined in its core rules?

For example, for me, of all the systems I've actually read through and played, Savage Worlds wins this competition. You may not like the system. You may not like what it delivers. But there's no question that for me at least, the game "experience" I envisioned while reading the Savage Worlds rules is very, very similar to the way it plays at the table. It's fast, it's a little bit kinetic, a little bit swingy with exploding dice, and a little bit pulpy. And you just feel as you read through the rules that that's exactly what is going to happen, and that it's intentional.

(I haven't played either system yet, but as a side note, Fantasy Craft also presents for me a fairly clear picture of the type of game that playing its RAW will produce, as does Radiance RPG).

And call me crazy, but I think it's extremely important, even critical to D&D Next's success, that the type of game it delivers is infinitely clear within its pages. Obviously there's going to be variances from group to group. Everyone's going to have their own ideas of what the most important elements are to focus on.

But if D&D Next is going to reach high levels of success, I think it needs to "play the way it reads." When I get done reading the D&D Next PHB, I should be able to say, "Yeah, this is going to produce a game with qualities X, Y, and Z" and even have some idea of which mechanics have that effect.

Why is this important? Mostly because WotC needs some good will. They need some "win" in the early going to gain traction. They need to do it to show customers that they're listening, and want to give them the best gameplay experience they can. If D&D Next has a particular playstyle in mind, TELL US and let us decide if that's what we want.

The other reason I think this is necessary? Because it displays a confidence in the material, in the preparation it took to create the material, and confidence in the material's ability to deliver on the promise. It became very, very clear after the first 5-6 months after 4e's release that WotC really didn't know what they building. Yeah, they had the PHB2 and the "X Power" splats in the works. But I never had the sense that they truly had confidence in the product until the release of Essentials.

To be sure, I hate the basic Essentials presentation. I don't like the smaller format, and I really dislike the art. But having read through both "Heroes" Essentials books, there's a very subtle but clear shift in tone that this is finally a product that is understood. The creators understand what they've built, and there's purposeful reasons for the changes outlined in the pages.

If D&D Next can encompass that level of purposefulness in its initial release, I'll feel a lot more confidant about the product line going forward.
 
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Raith5

Adventurer
I see what you mean but I cant see how this vaguely possible with DDN. DDN seems to be going against being a single game type with the desire for modules, include various playstyles etc. I think 4th ed had a very certain style of game in terms of heroic - almost gonzo- high fantasy which I really liked, but it left too many gamers out. WOTC is not going to repeat this experience. Maybe they can set out to achieve a distinct style which the basic, standard and advanced game types.
 

innerdude

Legend
I hear what you're saying, Raith, but I think the farther the playtest goes out, the more we're seeing this sort of "inclusion through vagueness" strategy isn't working.

And yeah, the 4e-defined playstyle didn't seem to work out in the long run--but how much of that is the fault of defining the playstyle, and how much of it was picking the wrong one to define?
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I can say that many of the Swordsman Schools within the roll & keep version of 7th Sea played mechanically exactly how they were described in the fiction. With the different swordsman knacks, the methodology of holding actions or calling raises, active defenses and the like... if your school was described as "flashy and fast, causing thousands of small cuts both verbally *and* physicially to overwhelm your opponent"... then dammit, that's exactly how your fight would play out for you. Or if you were a school that held back, absorbing blow and after blow, all waiting for that one opening and opportunity to deliver a single massive strike to instantly destroy your opponent... the mechanics played out that way too.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
For example, for me, of all the systems I've actually read through and played, Savage Worlds wins this competition. You may not like the system. You may not like what it delivers. But there's no question that for me at least, the game "experience" I envisioned while reading the Savage Worlds rules is very, very similar to the way it plays at the table. It's fast, it's a little bit kinetic, a little bit swingy with exploding dice, and a little bit pulpy. And you just feel as you read through the rules that that's exactly what is going to happen, and that it's intentional.

QFT.

A big reason I am a Savage and not a 4e-er is that 4e PHB had the misfortune of going up against the Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition at the time I was looking for a change from 3e. From what little I played and what others have said, 4e plays much better than it reads. But SW reads awesome and plays awesome (IMO of course). That book (and their settings books) just entice you to want to play them. While I do not play 4e, I pick up the occasional nugget and the writing is only marginally better than the PHB. I tend to read a snippet of 4e material and put it back on the shelf vs. half planning a Savage Campaign before I realize I gotta get ready for the current one :).

Given D&D dogfight with Pathfinder and itself (4e going to 5e), it needs to both play like it reads and get you excited to play it.
 

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I think Savage Worlds is one of the best - and best-designed - RPGs of all time. Interestingly, I can see its influences in 4E from time-to-time, especially in terms of the monster designs.

Next doesn't really have a distinctive flavour as yet, IMO, and it reads like there are too many ideas competing for the design space. It still strikes me as being a homebrewed fantasy heartbreaker. I hope that changes before it's published.
 

innerdude

Legend
I think Savage Worlds is one of the best - and best-designed - RPGs of all time.

This becomes more and more evident to me the more I "tweak" with the system. There's so many times I say, "Yeah, I could do this!" but then realize after going through the rules some more, that the designers already thought of it, and either decided to forego the option for simplicity, or have something in place already that isn't quite the same, but works with other rules to accomplish the same purpose with less "fiddling."

I've been toying with a "variant" of Savage that's a little bit closer to Cortex+ (still roll a dX and a d6 on every throw, only instead of taking the best result independently, you add the two together; only the d6 "Wild Die" can explode). The baseline math for this is actually pretty solid and elegant--the problem is, Savage World's developers have already done the hard work of creating the combat and damage modeling in a uniquely satisfying way. So why would I try and make this change? It's the whole "heartbreaker" concept all over again---I really like Savage Worlds, but I want to make it "better" to suit my taste . . . but unless I'm willing to do the hard work of making the entire mechanical foundation solid from top-to-bottom, why wouldn't I just play Savage instead?

Anyway---what is it about Savage that makes it so fluidly "translatable" from the page, to the reader's head, to the game table? Because for me, I think 5e will be dramatically more successful if it has this as a feature.
 

Gilbetron

First Post
Oddly enough, Savage Worlds is often presented as an example of a system that plays different than it reads. I'm a big fan of it, and agree with that sentiment. Having a system that reads as it plays is nice, but if any design goal needs to give, it would be that part. I'm ok with a system that plays better than it reads, because I don't really care that much how it reads, as long as it is readable.
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
Savage Worlds does play better than it reads, in that its mechanics seem very strange and their cohesiveness isn't obvious from the words.

But, Savage Worlds does, in play, accomplish the promises it makes. It is fast, furious, and fun. It's a bit pulpy, but also readily adaptable to a wide array of games.

I've seen people, particularly people who pay too much attention to the math, get very weirded out by reading Savage Worlds. So, getting that right could help.

But having the rules fulfill the promises of the text is important.
 

Well, to start with they will need to be readable books, not the textbook/reference book that the current rulebooks have become.

Give it to Gygax: the 1E DMG may ave some weird rules and be strangely organized, but that book reads.
 

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