Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Kain Darkwind]

What's to say that the Demon Lord's don't have better stats in FR... oh wait, Champions of Darkness or whatever kinda nuked that idea... Well, never said they didn't screw stuff up...

However, the powerlevel of certain things changes depending upon the campaign. In one campaign, the mortal power level may scale off at around 18th level, while in another it may go as high as 40th. Eberron is a pretty low powered world. Many of the 'high level NPC's' taper off around 20th level (and one of those 20th level folks is a sentient tree.)

Then there's FR, with it's multitudes of high level folks running around killing 16th level kobolds. Obviously, the power level is different here. FR also has meddling gods, while Eberron has gods... that don't interfere with the daily lives of mortals. That throws another wrench into the mix.

Obviously, creatures that may not be appropriate power-level wise might fit into Eberron no problem, while creatures that have an appropriate power-level for Eberron may be ridiculously weak.


Sorry, my bad.


IF I want them to, they will be beatable at 16th level. It's my campaign. Obviously, not everyone wants that, which is why they have a base level of power with which you can advance them from.


Maybe I do. Have you asked my opinion on them?


A proper scale depending upon the campaign. Who's to say that I use the D&D stats? Who's to say that I don't weaken the gods too? Who's to say that I consider level 20 to be the epitome of mortal ability and progress further is impossible?


Which is why I like the scalable demon lord idea. Scale them to your convenience.


What's wrong with that?

If that is the case, then they should be scalable from CR 1, by your own logic.

 

[Mirtek]

However, the powerlevel of certain things changes depending upon the campaign.

And that'S why they should balance the powerlevel around the core rule books. And the unique immoral rulers of the plane should be (even if it's just slightly) more powerfull than some overblown mortal lizzards.

 

[Pants]

If that is the case, then they should be scalable from CR 1, by your own logic.

Well, there really is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Ripzerai]

Part of what I meant was basically to use the Lord's mental stats as well as possible - crafting alliances that make him virtually untouchable, making promises to other demons ("follow me, and you'll wreak greater havoc than you could alone"), using his resources to award 'loyal' behaviour - basically everything that a mortal ruler would do as well to stay in power.

That assumes the lords have better mental stats than any of their followers - which is probably not the case, given the power levels involved here. An average marilith, for example, has 3d6+8 intelligence, or anything from 11 to 26. A marilith with the nonelite array, given intelligence as its highest trait, will have an intelligence of 21. One with the elite array might have an intelligence of 25. That's to say nothing of advanced mariliths, which do exist according to the MM (with those above 48 hit dice said to be very rare, but still not nonexistent).

Even if Baphomet does happen to be smarter than anyone else within range, there's bound to be a time when the lord fails its intelligence check while a minion gets a lucky streak.

Then the house of cards that the demon lord has built, through wit and fraud, will inevitably collapse.

 

[Victim]

I'd prefer demon lords to be in the CR 24-28 range. Theoretically beatable by the greatest mortals (I'm not fond of the epic rules), but not likely even without even considering the infrastructure advantages possessed by the demon lord.

I disagree that changing levels to fit play style is stupid. Basically, power is relative to the environment. FR's power players are so high level because the other power groups are also arbitrarily that high in level. It's inflation, and currencies (and levels/CR are basically a currency of raw power) undergoing inflation lose value. 20 FR levels are maybe worth around half that in Eberron levels. Instead of having 10th level guards, 20th level wizards in every town, 30+ level archmages, and CR 50 fiend lords, you can cut everything down to maintain relative power (the increased rarity of certain types of high level powers maybe actually increase the impact of the big guns) and use better (IMO) rules.

To be fair, I wouldn't put gods too much above demon lords.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Well, there really is nothing wrong with that.

And here's the coup de grace. Demons are scalable from CR 1. Manes, dretch, etc. They all exist at the lower rungs of the demon ladder. If you want low level demon encounters, use low level demons. If you want mid level encounters, use vrocks and hezrou. If you want high level encounters, use marilith and balor. And if you want high epic level encounters, you should use demon lords.


The absolute sliding scale idea doesn't work. You can't have CR 1 great wyrms and you can't have CR 1 balors. Or demon lords. The flavor given to these creatures is just as important as the stats. You can't have a description of awesome power and then ability scores of 5-9 and 2 HD. Because if that is the case, there is no reason to bother playing the game...the game's mechanics are supposed to interpret a world, and make it come alive. Not twist the laws of reality so that you can more comfortably play.


If DnD tells you that a Jump check DC 40 is required to jump a bridge 40 feet wide, and your players can't do that, do you just change the DC to 10? And if you do, then WHY? The entire system is set up with a comprehensive power level...somethings are not meant to be done before a certain level. That's part of the fun of the game, it installs a sense of ambition. No one (other than very young children) likes to play a game where everything is just handed to them...that's not a game, that's 'let's pretend'. And that is certainly not what DnD was based on, in any of its incarnations.


Demon Lords need to be more powerful than balors. Demon Princes should be more powerful than Demon Lords. And regardless of your game, their power level shouldn't be dropped to accomodate the lowest common denominator. There are other ways you can let your PCs at 16th level beat Demogorgon, if you want that to be possible, without ruining Demogorgon's power level....the power level of his flavor. A few include, circumstances (Deus ex Machina) reducing his available power level, awesomely powered artifacts, high level aid, etc. But that doesn't change that Demogorgon, who has ruled the Abyss for millenia, should have more than 27HD, should ideally pose a greater threat than a great wyrm dragon, should be a real threat. Situational modifiers can make him available to be beaten at 5th level, if that is the playstyle you wish to have. Not his 'standard' stats.

 

[Mirtek]

This is irrelevant. I haven't played in an epic game yet and I don't think demon lords should be killable at level 20. Neither do my players. What matters to us the most is verisimilitude.

That's my point too.

Exhausted messenger arrives: Good news! Demogorgon has somehow entered our world and is currently razing some cities!
Clueless bystander: What? How is this suppossed to be good news?
Annother bystander: Well, at first they feared it was a great red wyrm and that we were really in trouble. But now we can relax as it's only the prince of demons.

To me it's not the question if people play epic level, but if people think the existance of epic levels should be part of the games core assumptions.

That wouldn't have to be bad, but it becomes bad when these assumption is not equally applied throughout the core game. If Demogorgon would be useless with CR higher than 23, then tell me what is a great red wyrm? By that logic it's a waste of space.

From then it's the question if a mortal should be able to stop a demon prince and I think the answer should be yes (would be awefully depressing otherwise and canon has enough examples of demon lord imprisoned by powerfull mages).

Well, I actually find the idea depressing that my level 20 character and his pals is able to beat up anything they like.

So what's the answer to the secret of the multiverse and the meaning of everything? Well, I guess the answer has to be me, seeing as we just slew the last primordial immortal ruler of the outerplanes.


Has everthing to be killable? Doesn't anybody buy supplements just for gaining new knowledge about the game world? Even if this knowledge comes down to: Yes, we suppose it's possible for a mortal to slay Demogorgon, but not at 20th level.

Yes, the stats as represented at Dicefreaks are completly useless for an ingame use (at least for me and I guess for most people), but that doesn't mean I enjoy reading them any less. They represent an logical multiverse (even if I disagree with some DF assumptions about the nature of these entities), it's a logical set up.

One of my favorite 2e supplements was Faces of Evil, which was basically a complete supplement without any rules. Just fluff, fluff and more fluff.

 

[coyote6]

I don't expect to ever run or play an Epic Level D&D campaign, so CR 30+ stats are likely to be of no particular use to me.

Whether or not I want the PCs in a particular campaign to be able to destroy a demon lord depends on on how epic (note the lower-case) I want that campaign to be. Thus, I want either: (a) demon lord stats that ~20th-21st level PCs can challenge, for an epic campaign that culminates in the destruction of one of the Princes of the Abyss; or (b) I'm fine with no stats, because an "undestroyable" stat block can be conveyed with one word. Of course, CR 30 or 50 or 500 stats are fine for the latter purpose, too, except possibly as they take up space better (for my purposes) used for other things.

Also note that what I do or want in one campaign doesn't necessarily mean that's what I want for all time. (I just don't foresee playing to 21st+ level D&D being fun enough to be worth the effort.)

 

[Kain Darkwind]

I don't expect to ever run or play an Epic Level D&D campaign, so CR 30+ stats are likely to be of no particular use to me.

Whether or not I want the PCs in a particular campaign to be able to destroy a demon lord depends on on how epic (note the lower-case) I want that campaign to be. Thus, I want either: (a) demon lord stats that ~20th-21st level PCs can challenge, for an epic campaign that culminates in the destruction of one of the Princes of the Abyss; or (b) I'm fine with no stats, because an "undestroyable" stat block can be conveyed with one word. Of course, CR 30 or 50 or 500 stats are fine for the latter purpose, too, except possibly as they take up space better (for my purposes) used for other things.

Also note that what I do or want in one campaign doesn't necessarily mean that's what I want for all time. (I just don't foresee playing to 21st+ level D&D being fun enough to be worth the effort.)

So....the later dragon age categories. Wyrm, great wyrm, in a few cases even Ancient....they are worthless, right? Or should be squeezed down into CR 21ish for you?


If you want a 20th level encounter with a demon, use a balor. Same as you use a lesser dragon category for a lower CR. If you want a 20th level encounter with the Prince of Demons, use an aspect of Demogorgon. Don't cry to the multiverse that you deserve to beat him at 20th level just 'cause'.

 

[Pants]

So....the later dragon age categories. Wyrm, great wyrm, in a few cases even Ancient....they are worthless, right? Or should be squeezed down into CR 21ish for you?

From a flavor standpoint, yes.

And here's the coup de grace. Demons are scalable from CR 1. Manes, dretch, etc. They all exist at the lower rungs of the demon ladder. If you want low level demon encounters, use low level demons. If you want mid level encounters, use vrocks and hezrou. If you want high level encounters, use marilith and balor. And if you want high epic level encounters, you should use demon lords.

True.

The absolute sliding scale idea doesn't work.

Depends.
However, an appropriate base level must be achieved, from which the sliding scale would descend from. Now, do you have HotA? Are you reading it now? Because it seems like some of those who have the book are saying that these stats are calculated as if the Lord were off his or her lair. Others are saying, no it's not written that way.

Now, since I don't have the book, I can't really judge. However, let's go with the assumption, that these are their stats on plane or off plane. Now, if each one had a CR higher than the average Balor's, then I'd say that an appropriate 'base line' has been achieved (not accounting for the fact that CR isn't very good at power assessment). This way, the demon lords are above (not much) the 'average' Balor and can be advanced until you reach whatever power level you desire. Sure it takes work, but it's better than having stats that are completely useless or having no stats at all (assuming you want stats).

You can't have a description of awesome power and then ability scores of 5-9 and 2 HD.

Or you can be a 2e baernaloth.

Because if that is the case, there is no reason to bother playing the game...the game's mechanics are supposed to interpret a world, and make it come alive. Not twist the laws of reality so that you can more comfortably play.

It's a game, anyone can play however they wish. If someone really wants to play that way and everyone is having fun, how can you dump on their play style? I don't want to play that way, but maybe someone does. It's not bad-wrong.

If DnD tells you that a Jump check DC 40 is required to jump a bridge 40 feet wide, and your players can't do that, do you just change the DC to 10? And if you do, then WHY?

Not a very good comparison.
You're comparing a mere mechanic (a Jump check) to a creature with past and flavor to it (a demon lord).

Demon Lords need to be more powerful than balors. Demon Princes should be more powerful than Demon Lords. And regardless of your game, their power level shouldn't be dropped to accomodate the lowest common denominator.

Actually, it's my game, I can really do whatever I want in it, but that's really beside the point.

There are other ways you can let your PCs at 16th level beat Demogorgon, if you want that to be possible, without ruining Demogorgon's power level....the power level of his flavor. A few include, circumstances (Deus ex Machina) reducing his available power level, awesomely powered artifacts, high level aid, etc. But that doesn't change that Demogorgon, who has ruled the Abyss for millenia, should have more than 27HD, should ideally pose a greater threat than a great wyrm dragon, should be a real threat. Situational modifiers can make him available to be beaten at 5th level, if that is the playstyle you wish to have. Not his 'standard' stats.

Nitpick, Demo doesn't rule the Abyss.

Regardless of what I may be saying, I do agree with you that the status quo power level should be maintained. I'm just arguing that, as seen all over the internet, NO ONE AGREES ON HOW POWERFUL THEY SHOULD BE. Which is why I advocate the Advancing the Archfiends idea, using an 'appropriate' base power level established. Since I don't have the book, I don't really know if the stats would or do represent an appropriate base power level. I'll find out when I get it.