Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Taelohn]

Plus, the historical background says that gods should be more powerful than demon lords and princes. The Deities and Demi-Gods major gods would have had no problem with Orcus, Asmodeus and the like.

What historical background suggests this? Whenever they've interacted, the planar lords have traditionally dealt with gods on equal or greater terms. To quote a few examples mentioned in this thread:

Yugoloths carved Khin-Oin from the spine of a deity they killed, they also forced true deities out of active involvement in the Blood War, Prince Levistus is shrinking the size of Set's deific domain in a protracted war, and Asmodeus forced Gruumsh and Maglubiyet out of Avernus and into Acheron.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Put me in the "Can be appropriate" column.

No, I wouldn't. Plus, the historical background says that gods should be more powerful than demon lords and princes. The Deities and Demi-Gods major gods would have had no problem with Orcus, Asmodeus and the like.


What was the level of Queen of the Demonweb Pits? You were expected to encounter and face Lolth in her lair. My copy says it's for character levels 10-14. I don't see how she could be "godlike" if 14th level characters are supposed to have a chance facing her in her lair with her minions supporting her.

Assuming characters level through the adventure, and she was a very tough encounter, CR 16-17 might be appropriate.

Keep in mind, this same Lolth was considered a god in the 1ed Deities and Demigods, along with Orcus and Demogorgon, if I remember correctly.

1ed, like I have said, had planar rulers as demi to lesser gods only slightly less powerful than the regular gods. The one thing you could definitely count on though, is a planar lord to be more powerful than a balor.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

that said, i don't think they should have stats.

*gasp!* Not going with the 1E approach?


EDIT: Answering the actual question, I like 'em at anything higher than 20, preferably lower than mid-30s for run-of-the-mill (heh) archfiends. I'm quite pleased wit the news of low (heh) CRs on these guys; it means I might actually be able to use them.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Lots of interesting ideas, here. I notice that some people who seldom post feel strongly enough to comment as well.

Obviously, you can't please all of the people all of the time, and there will always be dissent on this issue. There are any number of competing canons, and players' viewpoints often border on fundamentalism. That said, for me :


1) The thing that bugs me most is consistency. I would have liked to see a level playing field drawn between the Draconomicon articles in Dragon, and the Fiendish Codices (we can assume that Devils will recieve the same treatment?). This strikes me as pretty basic. In other words, updated (and in some cases, powered-up) BoVD stats.

2) For those who suggest that advancement lies in the hands of the DM, I agree. The problem is that hand-crafting a demon prince takes an enormous amount of time.

3) It speaks volumes about how poorly supported epic-level play in general is, and the default assumption is Lvl 20 tops. This is a shame - I run an epic-level game, and I'd like more material to draw on. But if WotC did their research - and surely they must have done - it puts me firmly in a minority camp. I don't anticipate any new supplements in this area. I guess I just have to suck it up, and do any modifications myself.

4) My resigned appeal to whoever is writing the second (or third?) Fiendish Codex (James Jacobs? Erik Mona?) would be

Please devote a respectable amount of space to ideas about how advancement can be made flavorful. This might include notes on adding HD or class levels, new special abilities, upping SR, a revamped Paragon template (or something less extreme), divine ranks, integrated caster levels, etc. etc. Although I think accurate balance beyond CR30 is close to unattainable, I think we can ball-park it within a CR or 2.

It remains my hope that the listed CRs of all of the demon lords in FC 1 are simply inaccurate and too low. By about 6 to 8. Less work for me, that way.

 

[Glyfair]

What historical background suggests this? Whenever they've interacted, the planar lords have traditionally dealt with gods on equal or greater terms. To quote a few examples mentioned in this thread:

Game historical. Look at Deities & Demigods, look at the Monster Manual & Fiend Folio. Those "Demon Princes" were no match for the gods.

I'd compare D&D stats, but I can't seem to find the Demon Lords stats for them (was it Eldritch Wizardry). How did they compare to Gods, Demigods & Heroes?

Keep in mind, this same Lolth was considered a god in the 1ed Deities and Demigods, along with Orcus and Demogorgon, if I remember correctly.

You do have a good point here. However, this really isn't a discussion about the fact that Balors are too powerful in 3E

 

[Ripzerai]

Game historical. Look at Deities & Demigods, look at the Monster Manual & Fiend Folio. Those "Demon Princes" were no match for the gods.

They all had the powers of lesser deities in 1st edition (since 1980), and most of them were lesser deities or demigods in 2nd edition.

 

[Sledge]

To keep on topic, having them this low makes them ineffective by the rules. When the WEAKEST pit fiend stands a chance at usurping the demon lords, then what do the 54 hd ones do?
Dicefreaks is a good measure for me. I'm not opposed to scaling on principal, just the insane scaling.
Scaling demon lords from 30-50 is scaling and extreme at that. Just how much power can these cr 20ish demon lords actually wield.
Someone once told me they thought if he wanted his 1st level party fight the evil necromancer that terrorized the land, then that necromancer should be level 1 or 2. There is no "terrorize the land" at level 1 or 2. The same thing holds true of the bigger bads. Anything that can tell pit fiends what to do needs to be MUCH higher in cr than the weakest pit fiend. Especially since pit fiends reach considerably higher cr's than 20. Especially since pit fiends can show up in groups of 4. Why would a pit fiend not destroy a demon "lord" that is its inferior? What exactly is the CR of a 54 HD pit fiend again? Given that the demon lord base stats are as weak as the base stats for a non lord devil there is a problem here.

 

[Glyfair]

They all had the powers of lesser deities in 1st edition (since 1980), and most of them were lesser deities or demigods in 2nd edition.

True, but the actual stats didn't compare, so they still would have had their butts handed to them by 1E lesser gods. Even some demi-gods.

IIRC, Queen of the Demonweb pit gives Lolth those abilities and they characters are still expected to face her and have a chance of defeating her.

 

[Baron Opal]

I don't have a problem with the stats as written. If I don't like them I'll scale them up with the guidelines provided. I don't expect to have PCs above 20th level, although I have my campaign scheme allows up to 30 HD / levels for outsiders. So, the 60 HD balor isn't an issue for me.

And I consider my campaign to have a high degree of internal self-consistancy, thank you.

 

[Ripzerai]

True, but the actual stats didn't compare, so they still would have had their butts handed to them by 1E lesser gods. Even some demi-gods.

There's no lower limit to divine stats. Some of the published lesser gods may have been stronger - others may well have been weaker. The demon princes were at the same stratum as the gods. They have to be, if they're to avoid having the gods take over their planes.