I think making encounters tailored to be unbeatable is still a poor approach. Ideally you would want to make it undesirable and unsustainable to keep facing the pursuers, and make fleeing more attractive and efficient to advance to whatever goal you have.I actually like the idea of having to run away from a more powerful foe. It just has to be powerful enough and telegraphed that they can’t defeat the enemy. While at the same time they still need to interact with it otherwise it’s a nameless threat that serves little more than a device. That’s a difficult needle to thread.
That may be so, but an encounter slant like that is pretty much what you need in order to get the kind of rolling vehicle combats wotc clearly wanted to put in. Absent some kind of fate style taken out mechanic there isn't much reason beyond "let's give it a try" novelty of the car not to just stop the vehicles and fight like normal if the persuant doesn't just drive away.I think making encounters tailored to be unbeatable is still a poor approach. Ideally you would want to make it undesirable and unsustainable to keep facing the pursuers, and make fleeing more attractive and efficient to advance to whatever goal you have.
Which again comes down to the adventure needing a good structure.
Your DM must have seriously beefed up the encounters then. By a couple of orders of magnitude. Which was probably quite sensible.
I actually like the idea of having to run away from a more powerful foe. It just has to be powerful enough and telegraphed that they can’t defeat the enemy. While at the same time they still need to interact with it otherwise it’s a nameless threat that serves little more than a device. That’s a difficult needle to thread.
Bear in mind that in 5e running away is rare for all the reasons discussed in other threads… and PCs are as like to fight to the death rather than surrender or flee. At least until it is too late. It causes problems.
Well a thousand stirges is several orders of magnitude more than anything described in the books.They were actually not that powerful. They were just stirges but there were like a thousand of them. We were trying to kill these knights that were being kept alive and crucified on trees by Zariel. We wanted to put them out of their misery. Each time we killed a knight dozens more stirges joined the melee. We ended up using AOEs to waste the knights and then fled on the rover.
The stiges are not powerful alone but their numbers would have overwhelmed us if we did not flee.
To be honest though that particular DM is the best I have ever played with, like Matt Mercer good.
Not counting when we fled, most of the other cars we fought had great ranged weapons and I think we would have done worse if we stopped.That may be so, but an encounter slant like that is pretty much what you need in order to get the kind of rolling vehicle combats wotc clearly wanted to put in. Absent some kind of fate style taken out mechanic there isn't much reason beyond "let's give it a try" novelty of the car not to just stop the vehicles and fight like normal if the persuant doesn't just drive away.
So I hate to contradict you but maybe your DM had changed quite a bit of stuff there as well. The harpoon launchers on the vehicles have 120 ft range and there are generally one per vehicle. They do an average of 11 damage each on a hit. There is no earthly way a typical party at 7th level could be out ranged or out gunned by a fleet of them let alone one. Your Firebolt cantrip alone would almost match that javelin thrower!Not counting when we fled, most of the other cars we fought had great ranged weapons and I think we would have done worse if we stopped.
Our party was a Ranger/Cleric, Barbarian, AT/Bladesinger (me), Monk
Me and the Barbarian were both melee oriented builds. Being a wizard I would have been ok at range with spells if we stopped, but my spell selection was definitely geared toward melee, not slinging spells at range, and I don't think I had anything that matched the range of the harpoons and such on the vehicles we fought. The Barbarian would have been nearly useless if we stopped and the Monk and Ranger were pretty good using the harpoons and other weapons we had on our vehicles, so I don't think they would have been any better if we stopped.
If I was the DM and we stopped, I would have just moved the enemy vehicle a couple hundred feet away and sniped at us from there outside of the range of the "crowd pleasing" spells. If we tried to close with them on foot I would drive further away. This would also separate the party as the best ranged weapons we had were actually on the vehicle, so if we stopped our ranged folks would have been immobilized essentially. Add to this that you had cover on the vehicle and not on the open wasteland.
As it was we were constantly trying to close, the barbarian would leap on to their vehicle. If I was not trying to ram them or something I would misty step on to it while the other two shot at it.
I do agree with you. I’m not a fan of unbeatable combats. My preference would probably be a selection of side encounters and opportunities that if the party takes advantage the pursuing horde becomes greater. The more locations the party travel to the more hangers on the horde gathers and the more challenges and obstacles the party has to overcome. With opportunities to delay or degrade the horde at certain points instead. I would have liked a set piece battle at some point as some kind of climax.I think making encounters tailored to be unbeatable is still a poor approach. Ideally you would want to make it undesirable and unsustainable to keep facing the pursuers, and make fleeing more attractive and efficient to advance to whatever goal you have.
Which again comes down to the adventure needing a good structure.
That sounds sick!I personally redid the entire hell portion to focus on belief that the balance needs to be maintained for the fate of the know planes. So it's a shift form a series of fetch chains into a game of complex deal making and breaking to just keep the war going. Added in some major players like Mordekainen and a elder evil to put the scope and scale of what the party is up to in its place.
Now THAT is an idea!!!That sounds sick!
One thing I LOVE about the "materials" of DiA is that you can actually take this adventure a lot of radically different places. I have one friend who, of course removing all the railroad and story stuff, ran it as a BLoodborne-esque game where the players were in Elturel and slowly realizing that they and the city had been dragged into Hell. Nuts!
Maybe she did I don't know. I do know our Ranger and Monk both had ranged weapons (a non-magic long bow and non-magic short bow respectively) and they always used the harpoons instead of those weapons. If I remember correctly the harpoons were also magical weapons, which means they would do a lot more damage to the actual enemies that came against us than the mundane weapons they were carrying. Maybe that is why they used them? As most of what we fought were lycanthropes or fiends of some sort. When we first got the scavanger the only magic weapon we had was an axe+1 our barbarian used (later we found a magic dagger and a vicous staff and near the end a very powerful magic sword), but I don't think we ever had magic missile weapons .... (I was smart enough to silver my short sword before we went to hell, so I was generally effective).So I hate to contradict you but maybe your DM had changed quite a bit of stuff there as well. The harpoon launchers on the vehicles have 120 ft range and there are generally one per vehicle. They do an average of 11 damage each on a hit. There is no earthly way a typical party at 7th level could be out ranged or out gunned by a fleet of them let alone one. Your Firebolt cantrip alone would almost match that javelin thrower!
I have to say it. The stupid, cutesy, forgetful, baby elephant creature Lulu was particularly annoying. Dragging PCs around by the nose and being the driving force behind the adventure progression. I really hated playing it.
I am curious to know the story behind a vampire who is fiercely loyal to a city with a second sun designed to turn vampires to dust.I am running another campaign with evil characters who will soon reach Avernus. I am unsure what to replace Lulu with in that one. One is a vampire, the other an uncontrolled lycanthrope, they do terrible things that Lulu would want no part of. They are fiercely loyal to the Elturel though, so that part is not a problem.
I don’t know, fetch quests were a thing in Baldurs Gate, 6 years before world of Warcraft came along.Yeah quests where you find stuff are fine. For me when everyone started giving everything a term ( DPR, Tank, Sorlock, Fetch Quest, etc) started irritating me and put me off!
Maybe I'm old. Maybe that needs a thread.