D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Jaelommiss]

Encounter 5:

This room contains 3 shadow demons, that have been infused with the dark energies of the demiplane. They have 100 hit points each, and are under the effect of a haste spell (they keep spread out, and tend to use the extra action granted by haste to use the disengage or dash action). Increase their CR by 2 to reflect these changes. They were recently encountered by the Githyanki above (who underestimated the threat posed by the demons) and wait in this room hidden (DC 22 perception) in ambush. They attack on sight, using a bonus action (and the darkness of the room and the alcoves) to hide each turn, taking advantage of their mobility via the haste spell to move about the room and strike from hiding. They do not leave this room.

Adjusted Difficulty Rating: 13800 XP (medium) XP to award: 6900 XP

Shadow demons, per the monster manual, can pass through objects. They can also end their turn inside objects at the cost of a measly 1d10 force damage. Given that they have 100 HP each, they can survive roughly 18 rounds of ending their turn in an object.

If we assume the floor/ceiling/walls to be objects, then they can end their turns in them. The ghost stat block uses the exact same wording, so I will assume that this is valid (unless ghosts cannot pass through walls for some reason, but that seems odd). They would then be almost entirely immune to the party. Is there any reason, especially given their intelligence score of 14, not to use this tactic to have near perfect immunity when it is not their turn? Heck, the floor within 5' of a PC is still technically within that character's reach, so the party wouldn't even get opportunity attacks.


I'm asking this because I have seen a single Shadow Demon using this tactic wreck a level 7 party (I think, it was a while ago) with ease.

Edit: If the PCs just need to get through this room, then this is a lot more manageable. Since the demons don't leave the room the party just needs to survive for as long as it takes them to get out.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Shadow demons, per the monster manual, can pass through objects. They can also end their turn inside objects at the cost of a measly 1d10 force damage. Given that they have 100 HP each, they can survive roughly 18 rounds of ending their turn in an object.

If we assume the floor/ceiling/walls to be objects, then they can end their turns in them. The ghost stat block uses the exact same wording, so I will assume that this is valid (unless ghosts cannot pass through walls for some reason, but that seems odd). They would then be almost entirely immune to the party. Is there any reason, especially given their intelligence score of 14, not to use this tactic to have near perfect immunity when it is not their turn? Heck, the floor within 5' of a PC is still technically within that character's reach, so the party wouldn't even get opportunity attacks.

Appropriate counterplay from the PCs would be to ready a grapple.

 

[Jaelommiss]

Appropriate counterplay from the PCs would be to ready a grapple.

"Condition Immunities exhaustion, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained"

Good idea though. I might give an Int check to realize that grabbing an incorporeal creature probably wouldn't work, depending on how charitable I felt. Locking down their movement is the perfect plan though. No Magic Resistance makes them susceptible to a readied spell, though.

Another idea would be to make an area of bright light to trigger their Light Sensitivity. If everyone clusters there then at least they'll be attacking at disadvantage.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

"Condition Immunities exhaustion, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained"

Good idea though. I might give an Int check to realize that grabbing an incorporeal creature probably wouldn't work, depending on how charitable I felt. Locking down their movement is the perfect plan though. No Magic Resistance makes them susceptible to a readied spell, though.

Another idea would be to make an area of bright light to trigger their Light Sensitivity. If everyone clusters there then at least they'll be attacking at disadvantage.

Awwww. Good catch.

Plan B, in that case, is to retreat. Shadow Demons will need to follow above-ground or take d10 damage every turn for nothing (and I think solid matter also acts as difficult terrain for them?), which means they're vulnerable to potshotting while they retreat.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter may come in handy too as Plan C.

I really like monsters where simplistic counterplay doesn't finish them off. I would enjoy running into a shadow demon that Jaelommiss was controlling.

 

[DeanP]

The Sentinel feat would come in handy against these Shadow Demons.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The Sentinel feat would come in handy against these Shadow Demons.

Opportunity attacks make zero sense in D&D anyway so who's to say which way is more "realistic", but by RAW Sentinel wouldn't help. It would only help if your DM gives you an opportunity attack when they sink below the surface of the ground without exiting your reach, which by RAW you should not get since you're not exiting range at that point--and then when you do move out of range, you have total cover and cannot be targeted.

 

[DeanP]

Hemlock,

I disagree. If the Shadow Demon is in melee and leaves the reach of a character with sentinel, even if it does so by sinking through the floor, it would provoke an opportunity attack. I don't see how sinking through the floor would not constitute leaving the character's reach. If that opportunity attack hits, its speed is reduce to zero, therefore, it could not sink into the floor, because that would constitute movement. And movement of more than zero. Rules as written, I think it's very effective.

Plus, there's the opportunity for a reaction attack, should the shadow demon be within five feet and strike at a companion.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I could see it going either way. On one hand, the shadow demon is leaving the threatened area, which is what triggers an opp attack. However, thinking about the situation, the shadow demon moving through the solid floor would probably not be an anticipated move, so perhaps an opp attack is not warranted.

I can see an argument for either case. In cases like that I kind of treat it as tie goes to the player. Or maybe I would call for a check of some sort...an Arcanna check or an Intelligence check to see if the character realized the creature's nature, and therefore might anticipate such a move, and react with enough time to make the opp attack.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hemlock,

I disagree. If the Shadow Demon is in melee and leaves the reach of a character with sentinel, even if it does so by sinking through the floor, it would provoke an opportunity attack. I don't see how sinking through the floor would not constitute leaving the character's reach. If that opportunity attack hits, its speed is reduce to zero, therefore, it could not sink into the floor, because that would constitute movement. And movement of more than zero. Rules as written, I think it's very effective.

Plus, there's the opportunity for a reaction attack, should the shadow demon be within five feet and strike at a companion.

If you're still within 5', how does that constitute "leaving... reach"? The fact that there's a solid object in between you should be irrelevant.

But anyway, this is very much a DM's call, regardless of what RAW says. So I don't have a problem with the fact that you and I disagree about RAW; in practice RAW is irrelevant here. As a matter of fun I would overrule RAW and treat Earth Glide/incorporeal movement/etc. through solid matter identically to leaving reach normally--you get an opportunity attack unless Disengage/Mobile/etc. interfere. Like I said before, opportunity attacks make no sense anyway--so the fact that it makes no sense that the PC is getting in a free stab on the monster here doesn't make the situation any worse from a verisimilitude perspective, and avoids a game balance issue.

 

[Flamestrike]

Re: the Shadow demons, I'm not seeing it. The PC's can simply ready actions to [attack/ cast a a spell] triggered to occur when the Demons emerge from hiding [or the floor].

So even if the demon starts its turn hidden, or inside a wall, or both, and then moves to a PC and attacks, it instantly reveals itself after the first attack is resolved regardless of if the attack hits or misses, and is no longer hidden.

Then any PC with a readied action can now hit the demon, cast a spell on it or whatever.

After the 'interrupt' is resolved, the demon is free to move away [using its bonus action to hide again, or to disengage if there are PCs within reach that still have reactions left, or use that bonus action to attack or to dash]

Also, for any PC with True Seeing active, the demons cant hide from that person in shadows within the true sight range of that person. The True seeing PC will spot them automatically within that radius and can blast them at will.

Finally, 'only' 1d10 force damage might not sound like much, but it hurts the Demons to remain inside an object and they avoid it, preferring to use the unnatural gloom of the demi-plane and their skill at hiding to strike at PCs.

I expect the standard routie to go [start turn hidden] move to PC [attack while hidden + sneak attack] move away from PC [possible AoO] then use bonus action to Hide in the gloom of the demiplane.

This can be mixed up of course - thanks to Haste, the critters have an impressive move speed and can use that bonus action to also disengage, dash or attack [one attack only] instead of re-hiding.