D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Azurewraith]

Popped the potion first round we don't talk about the lightning bolt. Everyone made the save and I rolled like 10damge halfed from save and oath of ancients resistance aura. It would appear in my haste to get something posted I have excluded some details, ill sort it out I'm trying to do way to many things at the moment

 

[Radaceus]

Encounter1 Map

I've done up the map for Encounter1: Dm version here, and Player Version here

I managed to get it pretty close to the original dimensions, give or take
I didnt spend to much time on it, used Random Cavern generator and Paint. net.

1 square=5'

I've added a few things to it

• ramp up to the top of the cave in, this would be a steep slope.
• pile of large boulders gathered near the second giant
• A 10' ledge where Gorbath rests while talking to the other giant
• The second giant rests against the wall next to the 10' ledge below Gorbath

 

[Radaceus]

So after some critiquing on this via PM from silent parties, does anyone have any feedback regarding my DM license and interpretation of Encounter 1?

I have not run this yet and am willing to modify it

points

• In the description, there is no mention of an exit save for the hole in the collapsed ceiling, I took license to add the ramp, this exceeds the dimensions of the room, but is in itself extraneous unless Fly or Climb is used while avoiding close combat.
• I put the Giants next to each other, as per the description, they are talking between themselves, which brings up my next point
• I added the ledge due to how i made the map, that is, overlapping two random caverns, I feel this adds some extra difficulty to the battle. (Likewise in hindsight, I should put a pile of boulders and the normal Giant up there and Golbarth below.)
• Just because a Giant has a base of 3x3, it does not take up that complete area, likewise with the wolves of 2x2, this is a mechanical means of adjudicating their area of control, i.e. close combat. For instance a Medium Human can move through the same space as a Huge Giant {edit: not easily, rather as difficult terrain}, as per Movement and Positioning-
  "A creature’s space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat. not an expression of its physical dimensions". Meaning, yes the area is tight, as it is designed to be, but a Winter wolf is not 10'W and 10' L, at most 4'W and 8'L.
• The encounter description places the winter wolves at all points around the teleportation circle, and mentions they are between the party and the Giants, this is not possible for all of the wolves. I interpret this as: the party blips in, displaces the winter wolves, and the pack positions themselves as mostly to the north on their action, between the party and the giants.

 

[Flamestrike]

Im my mind it was:

• The room is a cavern (roughly) 60' N/S and 120' E/W
• 'Place the PCs in a 25'x25' square to the SE of the cavern' This is where they teleport to.
• Now place the Wolves - roughly surrounding the PCs, no more than 5-10' away (and possibly within reach)
• Place the Giants diagonally (NW) around 40' away from the PCs (within the giants move distance + reach), and 15' apart from each other.
• Draw some difficult terrain/ cover/ boulders in the SW 1/4 of the room extending to the centre of the room. The exit is beyond this rubble, and an additional exit is in the roof above this rubble.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think this is a great exercise but... are we really at encounter 1 conclusion after 300 posts?! :O

 

[Radaceus]

Im my mind it was:

• The room is a cavern (roughly) 60' N/S and 120' E/W
• 'Place the PCs in a 25'x25' square to the SE of the cavern' This is where they teleport to.
• Now place the Wolves - roughly surrounding the PCs, no more than 5-10' away (and possibly within reach)
• Place the Giants diagonally (NW) around 40' away from the PCs (within the giants move distance + reach), and 15' apart from each other.
• Draw some difficult terrain/ cover/ boulders in the SW 1/4 of the room extending to the centre of the room. The exit is beyond this rubble, and an additional exit is in the roof above this rubble.

Ah, I was going with the original dimensions posted, I dont think North matters as long as the creatures are positioned accordingly. I have the Giants about 40' away, and the wolves adjacent, so I think I will run with it that way as I like the idea of them being blipped into close combat danger. Hey its 13th level, that's a big deal for us to make it into our teens, so the better deal with it!

I didnt read anything about an exit other than the roof, but I will edit one into the SW corner mostly blocked by rubble. A medium sized creature can squeeze through, creating the dilemma while the others hold off the onslaught/clear the rubble, and how to get the last guy out.

It's all about resource management

anyways, I'll be working on the other maps soon, which brings up the following point:

Edit: I've remapped it and uploaded, I have Gorbath and other Giant 15' apart, I have the wolves all to the north except one near the SW exit

I think this is a great exercise but... are we really at encounter 1 conclusion after 300 posts?! :O

I believe two groups have currently tested and are mostly finished. I did not have that luxury, but feel this needs to be tested with real players, not me DM dice rolling. Anyone can run a number crunch, especially if they know the outcomes beforehand, no matter how unbiased they think they might be one way or another.

In my preparation to set this up with my group (we will be using ROll20), I realized I did not have any cavern maps to fit the bill, and while creating the map for Encounter 1, I thought I should share it here, so that any other DMs might have that resource to playtest this. As well as, I will be mapping up the other encounters ( hopefully this weekend)

 

[Celtavian]

I think this is a great exercise but... are we really at encounter 1 conclusion after 300 posts?! :O

I'm left wondering if anyone recalls the original test was based on the 6 to 8 encounter day versus an optimized group, not a standard play group. It has become less of a test and more of a chance for some people to play some D&D. Which is fine, but defeated the purpose of the test long ago. This is now just a bunch of disparate groups, not particularly optimized or played in an optimal manner, playing some encounters.

I've been reading the group tactics and outcomes, even unoptimized groups are running over quite a few of these encounters. Which is not surprising given how many advantages players have in 5E.

 

[Radaceus]

I'm left wondering if anyone recalls the original test was based on the 6 to 8 encounter day versus an optimized group, not a standard play group. It has become less of a test and more of a chance for some people to play some D&D. Which is fine, but defeated the purpose of the test long ago. This is now just a bunch of disparate groups, not particularly optimized or played in an optimal manner, playing some encounters.

I've been reading the group tactics and outcomes, even unoptimized groups are running over quite a few of these encounters. Which is not surprising given how many advantages players have in 5E.

Well, since you seem think you are the only one capable of optimizing, finish testing it then, it's all there for you to run it.

It's a great idea in concept and worthwhile to have a crack at it. The more the better. And, it does not matter what type of group play tests this; since it is set to test optimized characters, if that level of difficulty is proven, a subpar group will fall short.

Cant have results by standing on the sideline boohooing, get in there and show us what you got.

 

[CapnZapp]

I really think the constructive path forward is to simply accept that some groups mow through encounters others are struggling with, and not focus on charop bragging. "My party kills stuff better than yours" is incredibly tiring...

Instead accept that for some, what the DMG calls "deadly" might have to be monsters 5 or even 10 CR above the party level.

That the assumptions behind CR might be shot to pieces by optimizing groups doesn't change the fact that as long as WotC publishes more medium to high CR monsters (for variety), a decent DM can still challenge the group.

Just ignore EVERYTHING about encounters in the DMG. That stuff only causes frustration.

 

[Ancalagon]

Oh! Several groups are running it? Ah now I see why there are so many posts. I have to admit that I wanted to see what the "conclusion" was, I didn't want to read a 300 post thread if it had gone off the rails. Has any groups completed the number of encounters? Did it affect perceived class balance/utility?