D&D 5E (2014) Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[UngeheuerLich]

When they use their actions moving towards the door, RAW surprise is wasted.

 

[BoldItalic]

I think surprising them would be as were assuming the PC's are genetically engineered commandos with 30+years on the job.

Or 13th-level PCs?

But no, I'm kinda rooting for the PCs, but there are limits. Fair fight, let's see who runs out of spells (or hit points) first.

Bedrock: "Have at them, my noble friends! Evil must not prevail! Fight fairly and with honour and let the gods decide who shall triumph!"

Death Slaad (soto voce): "Who said anything about fair? Fair is for the fairies, tin man. We fight mean and nasty. See this rabbit? Fireball! Ha! Gotcha!"

 

[Celtavian]

When they use their actions moving towards the door, RAW surprise is wasted.

Not in 5E. If they hear the PCs and no one can beat their Stealth of 17, then they get surprise. You get a full turn during a surprise round. So you would run it the following way:

1. PCs enter.

2. Slaad hear PCs.

3. Roll initiative. Only people not surprised are those with Passive Perception high enough to see their outlines in gloom. Otherwise they're surprised.

4. Slaad move forward, do action and bonus action is able. Only those that win initiative can use reactions. Only those with high enough Passive Perception not surprised. You can move your full 30 feet, use an action and bonus action against surprised targets.

 

[BoldItalic]

That's why I layered the slaad. With 60 foot blindsight, no cover, and them invisible, I figured they would guaranteed be right up on the door to ensure they don't miss anyone entering and would force immediate initiative. Maybe Flamestrike set them up 70 feet away to be kind, I don't know. I figure as a DM I want to run it as ruthless as possible because that is generally what I do. Ruthless but appropriate is what I prefer.

Yes, your positioning of the slaad is better. It ensures that the encounter gets going without too much fiddling about. You can't be ruthless until combat starts

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not in 5E. If they hear the PCs and no one can beat their Stealth of 17, then they get surprise. You get a full turn during a surprise round. So you would run it the following way:

1. PCs enter.

2. Slaad hear PCs.

3. Roll initiative. Only people not surprised are those with Passive Perception high enough to see their outlines in gloom. Otherwise they're surprised.

4. Slaad move forward, do action and bonus action is able. Only those that win initiative can use reactions. Only those with high enough Passive Perception not surprised. You can move your full 30 feet, use an action and bonus action against surprised targets.

Oh sorry. I understood it differently. Yes if you move and use your action to attack then everything is right.
It is possible however that someone notices the invisible slaads and is higher in initiativer order, so they can act before the slaads.

 

[BoldItalic]

It is possible however that someone notices the invisible slaads and is higher in initiativer order, so they can act before the slaads.

Yes, that is correct. Surprise only affects creatures who fail to notice threats.

The expectation, in this encounter, is that some PCs will be surprised and some not. It may be possible for a PC who notices the threat, and is not surprised, to warn the others so that they are not surprised either. Equally, it may be possible for the slaadi to be surprised if the PCs can enter the room without being noticed. But those possibilities are difficult to contrive.

 

[Celtavian]

Encounter 2: Round 2

Initiative:
Jubali 22
Tim 22
Slaad 2: 17
Dom: 16
Seebo: 15
Ryken: 10
Slaad 1: 5

Position Update: Both slaad are visible. They move forward 10 feet to clearly see party and all parts of room. They take a position about 10 feet apart to cover movement to each part of room. Their plan is to cloudkill to drive the party forward into combat range to force them to use their movement to close into melee range where they can rip them apart. Slaad are confident combatants who will engage one target each. They will focus on soft targets first knowing they are easy to rip apart.

Bard: Bard: 107/93 Bard slots Used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/1 4th: 3/3 5th: 2/2 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/1 (2nd level) Gem of Seeing: Charges: 3/2:
Active Effects: Truesight active 120 feet (No concentration-great magic item), Faerie Fire (concentration/duration: 1 of 10)
Free action: Focus on one.
Action: Cast faerie fire using warlock slot.
Movement: Move back behind the paladin and cleric.
Free action telepathy: Kill the glowing one.

Slaad saves: DC 17 Dex (Slaad get advantage on saves and +2 dex)
1. (20,10)=22 (Success)
2. (6,7)=9 (Failure-at least not a total waste of a spell slot)

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/77 Bolts used: 21 Spell slots used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 2/2
Move: Move forward 30 feet along wall to right to avoid grouping.
Action: Attacks Slaad 2 who is glowing.
Bonus action: Extra crossbow shot.
Attack with Sharpshooter and Advantage: +8 to hit Rolls 1: (16,14)=24 2: (12,13)=21 3: (13,11)=21 4: (15,6)=23; 4 hits Damage: 4d6+64 (4,5,1,6)=80 piercing to slaad 2-4 bolts used.

Death Slaad 2 Hps 170/59 Innates Spells: Fireball Per day: 2/1 cloudkill: 1/0 Engaging eldritch knight.
Regenerates 10 hit points.
Free action telepathy: Poison them all.
Action: Cast cloudskill...Seebo uses reaction to counterspell with lvl 3 slot using abjuration roll: +10 versus DC 15 Roll: 10=20 (effect countered)
Move: The death slaad roars and rushes 30 feet towards the EK archer.

Cleric: 133/75 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/3 4th: 3/3 5th: 2/2 6th: 1/1 7th: 1/1
Move: Dom rushes forward 25 feet to attack slaad 2. Drawing mace.
Action: Attack with mace. +9 to hit./Roll: 19=28 Dam: 1d8+4+1d8 radiant+2d6 radiant (mace of disruption) (7,1,4,2)=11 bludgeoning and 7 radiant to Slaad 2.
Free action telepathy: I have this one, Ryk. You get the other.

Wizard: Hps: 93/78 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1st: 4/3 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/2 4th: 3/2 5th: 2/1 6th: 1/1 7th: 1/1 Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Move: Advances 15 feet to keep both slaad targeted.
Action: Cast chill touch on slaad 2 because they look like demons possibly resistance to energy. +11 spell attack Roll with advantage: (15,1)=26 Damage: 3d8 necrotic (8,8.7) 23
Regains reaction.

Paladin: Hps: 120/44 Slots used: 1st: 4/2 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/2 4th: 1/1 Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Move: Ryken double moves to slaad 1.

Death salad 1: Hps 170/123 Spells: Fireball: 2/1 Engaging gnome.
Free action telepathy: Kill the small one.
Action: Attacks paladin. Bite +9 melee attack and 2 claws +9 melee attack Rolls: Bite: 3=12 2 Claws: 16=25, 19=28 Damage: 2d10+10 plus 4d6 necrotic (7,8,3,2,2,6)=38 to paladin
Move: Rushes forward 30 feet towards wizard taking AoO from paladin.
Reaction: AoO paladin: +9 attack Roll: 20=29 (lucky) Lvl 2 smite Dam: 2d8+4 slashing +2d8 radiant plus 8d8 smite (2,2,3,6,5,1,6,7,1,1,3,6)=47 (Lame damage roll)

End of round 2.

 

[Celtavian]

Encounter 2: Round 3

Initiative:
Jubali 22
Tim 22
Slaad 2: 17
Dom: 16
Seebo: 15
Ryken: 10
Slaad 1: 5

Position Update: Both slaad are visible. They move forward 10 feet to clearly see party and all parts of room. They take a position about 10 feet apart to cover movement to each part of room. Their plan is to cloudkill to drive the party forward into combat range to force them to use their movement to close into melee range where they can rip them apart. Slaad are confident combatants who will engage one target each. They will focus on soft targets first knowing they are easy to rip apart.

Bard: Bard: 107/93 Bard slots Used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/1 4th: 3/3 5th: 2/2 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/1 (2nd level) Gem of Seeing: Charges: 3/2:
Active Effects: Truesight active 120 feet (No concentration-great magic item), Faerie Fire on slaad 2 (concentration/duration: 2 of 10)
Free action: Focus on one.
Action: Eldritch blast slaad 2 Rolls: +9 with advantage (18,8)=27, (17,15)=26, (7,15)=24 (3 hits) Dam: 3d10+12 force (10,3,7)=32 to slaad 2
Movement: Hold position.
Free action telepathy: Kill the glowing one.

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/77 Bolts used: 25 Spell slots used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 2/2
Move: Hold.
Action: Attacks Slaad 2 who is glowing and Slaad 1 when slaad 2 dies.
Bonus action: Extra crossbow shot.
Attack with Sharpshooter and Advantage: +8 to hit Rolls 1: (2,6)=14 2: (19,10)=27 3: (1,15)=23 4: (2,4)=12; 2 hits Damage: 2d6+32 (2,3)=37 piercing to slaad 2 (4 bolts used)
Missed Bolts: 2

Death Slaad 2 Hps Dead Innates Spells: Fireball Per day: 2/1 cloudkill: 1/0 Engaging eldritch knight.
Regeneration doesn't work at start of turn because less than 1 hit point. Slaad 2 dies.

Cleric: 133/75 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/3 4th: 3/3 5th: 2/2 6th: 1/1 7th: 1/1
Move: Dom attacks slaad 1. Drawing mace.
Action: Attack with mace. +9 to hit./Roll: 19=28 (another 19) Dam: 1d8+4+1d8 radiant+2d6 radiant (mace of disruption) (6,3,4,4)=10 bludgeoning and 11 radiant to Slaad 1.
Free action telepathy: Ryk, get on this.

Wizard: Hps: 93/78 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1st: 4/3 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/2 4th: 3/2 5th: 2/1 6th: 1/1 7th: 1/1 Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Move: Runs back 15 feet to opposite corner.
Action: Cast chill touch on slaad 1 because they look like demons possibly resistance to energy. +11 spell attack Roll with advantage: 7=18 Damage: 3d8 necrotic (4,6,8) 18 Slaad 1 can't regain hit points until start of next turn

Paladin: Hps: 120/44 Slots used: 1st: 4/2 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/2 4th: 1/1 Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Move: Ryken moves to slaad 1.
Attacks: Two attacks slaad 1. Rolls: 15=24, 13=22 Dam: 2d8+8 slashing and 2d8 radiant (4,2,4,1) 14 slashing and 5 radiant

Death salad 1: Hps 170/65 Spells: Fireball: 2/1 Choice: The slaad decides to turn invisible and flee to lead the PCs into the golem. Then attack them while they are engaged.
No regeneration because of wizard's chill touch.
Action: Turn invisible.
Move: Runs 30 feet towards western passage.
No AoOs due to invis.

End of round 3.

 

[Celtavian]

Encounter 2: Round 4

Initiative:
Jubali 22
Tim 22
Slaad 2: 17
Dom: 16
Seebo: 15
Ryken: 10
Slaad 1: 5

Position Update: One slaad dead and one slaad trying lead party into iron golem to help it kill them.

Bard: Bard: 107/93 Bard slots Used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/1 4th: 3/3 5th: 2/2 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/1 (2nd level) Gem of Seeing: Charges: 3/2:
Active Effects: Truesight active 120 feet (No concentration-great magic item)
Free action: Target where my beams hit.
Move: Rushes forward 30 feet to avoid cover by allies.
Action: Eldritch blast slaad 1 3 Rolls: +9 ranged spell attack-9=18,12=21,16=25 (3 hits) Dam: 3d10+12 force (1,6,6)=25 to slaad 1

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/77 Bolts used: 29 Spell slots used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 2/2
Move: Runs 30 feet along wall watching Eldritch beams.
Action: Attacks Slaad 1.
Bonus action: Extra crossbow shot.
Attack without sharpshooter and disadvantage due to invis tracking to beams: +13 to hit Rolls 1: (16,2)=15 2: (6,13)=19 3: (5,6)=18 4: (10,1)=14; 2 hits Damage: 2d6+12 (2,1)=15 piercing to slaad 1 (4 bolts used)
Missed Bolts: 4

Death Slaad 2 Hps Dead Innates Spells: Fireball Per day: 2/1 cloudkill: 1/0 Engaging eldritch knight.
Regeneration doesn't work at start of turn because less than 1 hit point. Slaad 2 dies.

Cleric: 133/75 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 1st: 4/4 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/3 4th: 3/3 5th: 2/2 6th: 1/1 7th: 1/1
Move: Dom rushes slaad 1 following beams and bolts.
Action: Attack with mace. +9 to hit with disadvantage./Roll: (6,5)=14
Free action telepathy: Ryk, get on this.

Wizard: Hps: 93/78 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1st: 4/3 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/2 4th: 3/2 5th: 2/1 6th: 1/1 7th: 1/1 Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Move: Runs 25 feet forward.
Action: Cast chill touch on slaad 1. +11 spell attack Roll with disadvantage: (4,9)=15 Damage: Miss
Free action telepathy: Up to Ryken.

Paladin: Hps: 120/44 Slots used: 1st: 4/2 2nd: 3/3 3rd: 3/2 4th: 1/1 Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Move: Ryken moves to slaad 1.
Attacks: Two attacks slaad 1. +9 melee attack with disadvantage Rolls: (12,4)=13, (15,2)=11 Dam: Miss.

Death salad 1: Hps 170/35 Spells: Fireball: 2/1 Choice: The slaad decides to turn invisible and flee to lead the PCs into the golem. Then attack them while they are engaged.
Regenerates 10 hit points.
Action: Dash.
Move: Runs 60 feet towards western passage.
No AoOs due to invis.

End of round 4.

 

[Celtavian]

Flamestrike,

I'm going to need to know the distance down the hallway from Encounter 2. One death slaad ran to lead the party into the golem. He managed to escape. We need to follow him down the tunnel. How far to the next area.