Design & Development: Elite Bulette

[RigaMortus2]

I'm guessing that Bullettes, when safely beneath the ground, can heal a few points of damage once or twice during an encounter.

I think it might gain a form of fast healing, but only when under ground?

The other thing I want to point out, is that the Cleric uses a fear spell on it which causes it to provoke from the Cleric, yet when the Cleric casts the spell, he does not provoke... Interesting...

 

[Gloombunny]

There is nothing in D&D currently that ties level to AC

But it's looking pretty likely that there will be in 4th, isn't it?

 

[pawsplay]

But it's looking pretty likely that there will be in 4th, isn't it?

Most likely. Even so, you can adjust the numbers up or down using Dex, armor bonuses, etc.

 

[Gloombunny]

Well, yeah.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, though. Are you making the point that D&D doesn't need an explicit "elite" tag to have monsters that are tough but not annoying to fight at a given level? Well, yeah, I mean, it doesn't seem like there are any specific rules attached to the "elite" tag anyway. It's just a way of explicitly saying "this monster is meant for a level __ party, but it's tougher than other monsters meant for that level, so only use one or two of them at a time".

I like it because it makes clear something that gains nothing from being left implicit, and because it means they're consciously designing monsters to fit that goal. This should make it fairly easy for a GM to put together a good variety of encounters that will be the right level of challenge for the PCs. (Or, when they want something to be particularly easy or particularly hard for the PCs to deal with directly, they can more easily and reliably set that up as well.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There is nothing in D&D currently that ties level to AC, and to hit and damage is easily tweaked using Strength.

I am familiar with City of Heroes, and I know that the level of Lieuteants and Bosses is quite arbitrary. Some things hit harder, some have more hit points, etc.

Effectively, there is:
Wealth per Level means people are able to buy better armor enchaning items (and they do in practice). If you look at monsters of higher CR, they will usually also have a higher AC. most higher level monsters either have a lot of HD to get the BAB, or also a high strength/dex, or both. Most of this is just implied, not absolutely hard-coded (you're not forced to buy armor enhancing weapons the same way as your forced a higher BAB, but it's better to do it.)

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

As far as I understand it, the designers are working on the basis that four monsters of, say, level 6 are an appropriate challenge to a 6th level party.

However, two elite verisions of that same monster would be an equivalent challenge.

Presumably, by the math, eight minions or one solo version of the creature would also be appropriate. I can see this working quite well:

A couple of minion fights (You're attacked by eight minion goblins!)
Then a more serious fight (Four goblins!)
The boss fight - (Two elite goblins!)
And the unpleasant surprise moment to cap it all (A solo goblin steps out and draws his flaming sword!)

As I understand it, all of those encounters (individually) would be the same as a CR6 encounter now. Of course, I don't know how it would work to be attacked by two of those encounters at the same time...

They're all GOBLINS. But the different challenges involved in being attacked by different numbers of goblins makes each sort of encounter feel different, and give different sorts of challenges. I really like it - it'll make it easier to set up multiple versions of the same creature with different abilities.

 

[Voss]

More commonly, you'd mix them. I doubt you'd see a solo goblin, for example. That seems to be a special class reserved for beholders, dragons and special creatures of various natures.

But the boss fight might include a whack of minions (whatever is equivalent to, say, 2 PCs) a couple normal goblins, and perhaps a goblin 'leader' who might be a level or two higher than the rest(and the PCs).

In theory, monster levels will be balanced against the PC group as individuals. Not like CR is where a CR8 is good against a group of 4 8th level PCs, but rather a group of 4 8th level PCs has 4 8th level monster opponents that can be broken down into minions or combined into elites or solos. But you could have a pack of minions, an elite and a normal goblin and it would be equivalent to 4 normal monsters.

Also consider that they have suggested that monsters will be viable opponents across a level range. With bab and saves advancing at 1/2 level, this makes more sense. There is a smaller jump in power for each level, so you don't have to feel terrible about throwing a boss monster who is at level +2 when compared to the PCs. [Under the current CR system, that monster would, in theory, be twice as powerful as a monster of just CR]

 

[bgaesop]

The ultimate currency is D&D combat is "Combat Actions." The more combat actions you have, the more chances you have to kill the other guy..

My boyfriend is a huge fan of AD&D, Second Edition, which has the "fighters with two attacks take two turns a round" rule and he refuses to switch to 3e. This should be good news as far as turning him to 4th Edition. Thanks!

As far as I understand it, the designers are working on the basis that four monsters of, say, level 6 are an appropriate challenge to a 6th level party.

However, two elite verisions of that same monster would be an equivalent challenge.

Presumably, by the math, eight minions or one solo version of the creature would also be appropriate. I can see this working quite well:

A couple of minion fights (You're attacked by eight minion goblins!)
Then a more serious fight (Four goblins!)
The boss fight - (Two elite goblins!)
And the unpleasant surprise moment to cap it all (A solo goblin steps out and draws his flaming sword!)

As I understand it, all of those encounters (individually) would be the same as a CR6 encounter now. Of course, I don't know how it would work to be attacked by two of those encounters at the same time...

They're all GOBLINS. But the different challenges involved in being attacked by different numbers of goblins makes each sort of encounter feel different, and give different sorts of challenges. I really like it - it'll make it easier to set up multiple versions of the same creature with different abilities.

I am in love with this idea. If this works out as well as you said, I have my next five dozen dungeons planned.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

My boyfriend is a huge fan of AD&D, Second Edition, which has the "fighters with two attacks take two turns a round" rule and he refuses to switch to 3e. This should be good news as far as turning him to 4th Edition. Thanks!



I am in love with this idea. If this works out as well as you said, I have my next five dozen dungeons planned.

If you want, you can improvise this stuff now:
As an example:
Pick a monster with a CR of the party's level (avoid deviations)
Half its hit points, you've got a Minion. (In case of spellcasters. Don't reduce HP, double the casting times or just rule that they cast one spell every 2 rounds. Ensure that there are always two of them around, and they cast in different rounds. You might want to reduce spells/day to half, but this is probably of no importance.)
Double its hit points, you've got an Elite monster.
Double its hit point and give it one free attack action per round, you've got a Boss. (Warning: make it impossible for the boss monster to make two attacks / cast two spells at the same creature(s). Consider doubling spells per day or spellike/supernatural ability uses for spellcasters. Monster relying a lot of Fast Healing/Regeneration might also want this value doubled)
Award half XP for Minions, double XP for Elites and Quadruple XP for Boss (or just adjust CR by -2, +2 and +4. Use this also for determining Encounter Levels)

It might be a bit clunky, but it might give you a first feeling for it.
If the players complain that they feel cheated:
1) They suck, you're the DM!
2) Remind them they get more XP
3) Explain them why you do it.
If they don't explain, still consider 3) and ask them how they liked it.

 

[Nebulous]

That's... interesting. Hmmm. Without knowing hardly anything about it, I think, on the whole, that I like it.

This is just a guess, but certain monsters might be able to get a "second wind" (like in SWSE) when bloodied and in their natural environment. I like it. It really gives the party something to chew over tactically knowing that an enemy can always surge back stronger than it was.

I really like it - it'll make it easier to set up multiple versions of the same creature with different abilities.

And it lets me reuse all those plastic minis i got fight after fight