Design & Development: Elite Bulette

[D.Shaffer]

I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been much talk yet about all the "opportunity attacks" that are getting thrown around in this article. Did I miss something, or are they backpedalling from their claims that AoOs aren't as easy to provoke? In this example round of combat, it comes up three times. First, the wizard is afraid that casting a spell will provoke one, then the bulette provokes by fleeing, then the other moves in such a way as to avoid provoking one

Just so we're on the same page, here's what they said about AoO. From the news page...

The 4E game system also speeds up round-by-round combat by smoothing out some of the clunky or less-intuitive mechanics. For example, we've made attacks of opportunity dirt-simple by reducing the number of things that provoke AoOs and keeping the list short, intuitive, and free of exceptions.

Considering that we dont know the exact play by play of how the characters moved during the combat, it seems to be a bit of a hasty conclusion to claim they're backpedaling. We know what provoked AoO in this encounter. We dont know what they've done that MIGHT have provoked AoO in 3rd but not in this one.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Irony. Dripping. Drip. Drip. Drip.

Did I tell someone what to do? I must have me on ignore and missed seeing one of my posts. Oh, wait.

I questioned the propriety of the behaviour that Gundark was praising.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

And it lets me reuse all those plastic minis i got fight after fight

Which is another very valuable point!

I realise that some monsters just won't be set up as 'solo' monsters (and I agree the dragon and the beholder are good examples of what a solo monster might be - a range of powers, good movement, multiple attacks). The idea of running elites alongside minions really works though.

I'm picturing, say, a large group of orcs coming over a hill and piling into the PC's. The minions are cut down swiftly, but there are one or two that are a bit tougher - and two more sitting on wargs a little way off watching the whole thing and waiting for the PC's to be softened up...hehehehehe.

Not that you couldn't easily do this at the moment, of course. But I'm guessing it'll be easier to wing it with 4e.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been much talk yet about all the "opportunity attacks" that are getting thrown around in this article. Did I miss something, or are they backpedalling from their claims that AoOs aren't as easy to provoke? In this example round of combat, it comes up three times. First, the wizard is afraid that casting a spell will provoke one, then the bulette provokes by fleeing, then the other moves in such a way as to avoid provoking one.

What's the story there?

This is how I see it: It seems that all the classes will be able to Oportunity attack a creature when they leave your space (like in 3.x) but the one getting Oportunity attacks when someone reloads, when someone casts a spell, when someone grapples, attacks unarmed, retrives an item ,etc, etc, etc, will be specially the fighter, as they have stated that the fighter will be the Opportunity attack master.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been much talk yet about all the "opportunity attacks" that are getting thrown around in this article. Did I miss something, or are they backpedalling from their claims that AoOs aren't as easy to provoke? In this example round of combat, it comes up three times. First, the wizard is afraid that casting a spell will provoke one, then the bulette provokes by fleeing, then the other moves in such a way as to avoid provoking one.

What's the story there?

My best guess for AoO's would be fewer triggers, but those triggers occuring more frequently.

The primary problems with AoO's that cropped up in 3.5 were that the list of things that were known to provoke them was very long, and there special cases within many of them.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Rechan]

The primary problems with AoO's that cropped up in 3.5 were that the list of things that were known to provoke them was very long, and there special cases within many of them.

My biggest peeve with them is that if you responded to an AoO with an action that would cause an AoO, your target gets an AoO on YOU now. (I.e. he moves out of your square, you get an AoO and use a trip, and he gets an AoO and thus attacks you).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Unless they're going to promote solo play, "counts as two monsters" and "is slightly more dangerous" work out to exactly the same thing.

Not really. Right now in 3e, the only real way to increase the power of a creature is to either add hit dice or templates. Hit dice increase the hitpoints of a creature while also increasing the saves, BAB, and skills of a creature. Templates normally add a bunch of powerful abilities to a creature.

Rather than make a creature slightly more dangerous, they normally have the effect of making a monster a LOT more dangerous. Often a 2 CR increase in a creature will increase the to hit of a creature by 6 or 7. Its AC might increase by 8 with the right template. Its saves probably go up by up to 4 each. Its DR might go up by 5. It might gain resistances or immunities to energies. That combination of things decreases the chance of PCs attacks to hit (by up to 40%!), the PCs spells from affecting them, the amount of damage they do, the ability to affect them at all as well as the amount of damage needed to defeat them.

When what you really want in a hard monster is about the same chance to hit them and affect them (maybe a little bit harder, but more like 5% harder) but for them to have the ability to stand up to the amount of damage done by an entire party of adventurers for more than one round. It really ruins the effect of a major enemy when they die in one round when they take 150 combined damage in a round when everyone in the party hits them.

So, typically, you'd want what 3e currently can't provide: A monster capable of withstanding the hits of the entire group for 5 rounds of combat. Assuming a party of 5 PCs each capable of doing 20 damage on average, you'd need a monster with over 500 hit points to survive this. Any creature with over 500 hitpoints in 3e has at least 40 hitdice giving them at LEAST +20 to hit(likely closer to +30). It isn't unreasonable for a party of 8th level characters to have that as an average damage. However, they'd be killed REALLY quickly by any creature capable of power attacking for 10 and still hitting most people on a 2. Plus, even if you could tone the to hit of the creature down to a reasonable level, it would still be a fairly boring fight as the monster attacks once per round and then the PCs act 5 times then back to the monster again.

So, that's the point of solo and elite monsters. Creatures who survive longer and might have the ability to do something that feels threatening to multiple members of the party at once.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

My biggest peeve with them is that if you responded to an AoO with an action that would cause an AoO, your target gets an AoO on YOU now. (I.e. he moves out of your square, you get an AoO and use a trip, and he gets an AoO and thus attacks you).

Though, technically, it could happen, I don't think I would allow that as a DM.

 

[Nebulous]

This is how I see it: It seems that all the classes will be able to Oportunity attack a creature when they leave your space (like in 3.x) but the one getting Oportunity attacks when someone reloads, when someone casts a spell, when someone grapples, attacks unarmed, retrives an item ,etc, etc, etc, will be specially the fighter, as they have stated that the fighter will be the Opportunity attack master.

This would be a great, great way to make the fighter class extremely attractive. But i wonder if there are "class feats" that would give a ranger or barbarian the same AoO advantages?

 

[jaer]

Fighter wards off the dirt with his shield = shield now gives some bonus to Ref score (whether by feat or class ability)? Sounds like even AoEs need an attack roll to hit in 4e, which means that there is no need for 3e evasion: they either miss, hit, or crit. There is no ref for half/none with evasion anymore.

Sounds like the shield gives the Fighter a Ref bonus so he was missed by the attack and being prone gave all the other characters a Ref negative, so they were hit. Sweet if this is the case; shields give bonuses to more than just AC, making them very worthwhile!

I thought I had read somewhere that spell casting was not going to provoke AoO (and thus casting defensively was removed since it became automatic anyway); perhaps any action while prone will provoke an AoO? They said that less actions would provoke the AoOs, but they would be more consistent.

Personally, I always hated how a tripped player (especially a caster) might simply stay on the ground because the penalties aren't that bad as provoking the AoO to stand. I'm all for making staying prone worse, and therefore making trip better.