Design & Development - Necromancy & Nethermancy

[Erudite Frog]

No, i don´t think so. Just attack lower level monsters if you have no magic items. Dark sun only works well because of themes backing it up.

Are your games so rigid that you know the exact level of each monster and your party makes decisions based off of this? What about monsters that have their level adapted? Dark Sun's themes are awesome and fun, but that's hardly the reason it "works".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Let me explain:

Adding to hit bonuses without damage to back it up, makes monsters more resilent. I explained it in a different thread, when I discussed the effect of increasing monster damage. If you always hit, your DM might be considering using monsters a little bit higher, thus negating the advantage of hitting better and also increasing the hp of the monster. With themes however, you have an extra encounter power which will make you damage output in an encounter a little bit higher.

I don´t say it doesn´t work, but i guess it should be not needed.

On the other hand, I love the monster AB treshold. It is an inherent bonus, but not front loaded (at level 2, when you just start getting magic items) but a failsafe, if you lose your item or don´t have the right item at hand, you are not much worse, when all other party members can easily hit.

Maybe the monster would be down too fast without the inherent bonus to hit. But a unified increase at that early level is IMHO not needed at all. (Especially the level 2 increase is a major offender... attack bonus of a thief e.g. goes up by 3 points, and maybe 4, if he choses to get lght blade expertise)

So in a rigid system, inherent bonuses are needed... in a dynamic system, effects may be opposite of at you want to achieve!

[MENTION=6673118]Erudite Frog[/MENTION]: no, players never know what level monsters are, that is exactly the point. If none of your players have magic items instead of all having +1 items, lower each monster level by 1 and be happy!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

double post

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I think inherent bonus has it's place: A magic item scarce setting.

Or, you know, anywhere you want to use it.

It may not be for everyone, but it's a nice alternative even in a magic-rich game where you would rather concentrate on wondrous items and don't want to have to worry about doling out Weapon-Armour-Neck slot items to everyone every five levels or so.

Personally, I find that to be a pain (and it makes magic items feel a lot less "special" - so I use inherent bonuses in my regular game, which is otherwise probably "magic normal."

No, i don´t think so. Just attack lower level monsters if you have no magic items. Dark sun only works well because of themes backing it up.

In a low-magic (or even non-magic) setting, it's pretty much vital to meeting game expectations. Continually using lower-level baddies to compensate might work, but it takes a lot of work on the DM's part; inherent bonuses don't.

I mean, use whatever you like though, but Inherent bonuses are good for more than Dark Sun. And I fail to see what themes have to do with it at all.

Adding to hit bonuses without damage to back it up...

I think you may be misunderstanding how it works... the Inherent Bonus applies to damage as well. And it gets "overwritten" if you have an item that's better (if you're using both systems together).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Inherent bonuses in a magic rich setting are actually more useful than in a low magic setting. But they just come 1-3 levels too early. (My favourite would be 5 and 9)

 

[Drakhar]

Let me explain:

Adding to hit bonuses without damage to back it up, makes monsters more resilent. I explained it in a different thread, when I discussed the effect of increasing monster damage. If you always hit, your DM might be considering using monsters a little bit higher, thus negating the advantage of hitting better and also increasing the hp of the monster. With themes however, you have an extra encounter power which will make you damage output in an encounter a little bit higher.

I don´t say it doesn´t work, but i guess it should be not needed.

On the other hand, I love the monster AB treshold. It is an inherent bonus, but not front loaded (at level 2, when you just start getting magic items) but a failsafe, if you lose your item or don´t have the right item at hand, you are not much worse, when all other party members can easily hit.

Maybe the monster would be down too fast without the inherent bonus to hit. But a unified increase at that early level is IMHO not needed at all. (Especially the level 2 increase is a major offender... attack bonus of a thief e.g. goes up by 3 points, and maybe 4, if he choses to get lght blade expertise)

So in a rigid system, inherent bonuses are needed... in a dynamic system, effects may be opposite of at you want to achieve!

[MENTION=6673118]Erudite Frog[/MENTION]: no, players never know what level monsters are, that is exactly the point. If none of your players have magic items instead of all having +1 items, lower each monster level by 1 and be happy!

I just want to be sure, but you do realize that Inherent Bonuses apply to hit and damage right, it's not just an attack boost.

 

[twilsemail]

Erudite Frog : no, players never know what level monsters are, that is exactly the point. If none of your players have magic items instead of all having +1 items, lower each monster level by 1 and be happy!

So in a higher level campaign you'd be tossing monsters out at L-4 to L-6? At some point there would be a noticable lack of challenge as every monster was ~40 HP shy of where they should be.

Just use inherent bonuses. They're much simpler and add to damage as well with the update they put into the DSCS. At least, I think it was an update. I remember liking the rule better after reading said book.

 

[The Little Raven]

Just use inherent bonuses. They're much simpler and add to damage as well with the update they put into the DSCS. At least, I think it was an update. I remember liking the rule better after reading said book.

Inherent bonuses from DMG2 included attack, defenses, and damage. It did not include any bonus from critical hits, which is what the Dark Sun update fixed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I just want to be sure, but you do realize that Inherent Bonuses apply to hit and damage right, it's not just an attack boost.

Actually i was not aware thanks. But -40 hp are remedied by the fact, that you deal 5 points damage less per hit, compared to a +5 weapon wielder. Additional +6 damage dealt less per hit due to a lack of bracers that add to damage. If you kill a monster in about 4 hits, that balances itself out.

If you crit (i assume inherent bonuses have no crit modifier), you need a hit less, but also deal 5d6 damage less. So IMHO, it could actually work without problems without inherent bonuses.

A cleaner way to represent inherent bonuses were grandmaster training. This would be an alternate reward that you can get. I just hate a hardcoded inherent bonus that increases power level of all characters equally.

If I had to go with perfect math, I would assume 3+level+weapon proficiecy bonus for all PCs, maybe 4+ like companion characters, and AC equal to 10+level+armor (with max dex for light armors) and add 1/4 level to damage rolls. Would be close enough to the right number.

 

[Drakhar]

Actually i was not aware thanks. But -40 hp are remedied by the fact, that you deal 5 points damage less per hit, compared to a +5 weapon wielder. Additional +6 damage dealt less per hit due to a lack of bracers that add to damage. If you kill a monster in about 4 hits, that balances itself out.

If you crit (i assume inherent bonuses have no crit modifier), you need a hit less, but also deal 5d6 damage less. So IMHO, it could actually work without problems without inherent bonuses.

A cleaner way to represent inherent bonuses were grandmaster training. This would be an alternate reward that you can get. I just hate a hardcoded inherent bonus that increases power level of all characters equally.

If I had to go with perfect math, I would assume 3+level+weapon proficiecy bonus for all PCs, maybe 4+ like companion characters, and AC equal to 10+level+armor (with max dex for light armors) and add 1/4 level to damage rolls. Would be close enough to the right number.

Actually...+1d6 per bonus when you crit. And if you hate having all the characters increase in power equally, have them choose between offence and defence, so instead of +1 to Atk/Dmg at level 2 they get +1 to their defences and vice versa. The whole point of the inherent bonus system is to keep characters effective in a low or no magic game.