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Design & Development - Necromancy & Nethermancy

gyor

Legend
The Blackguards encounter is cold/necro and I would not be surprised if the Blackguard gets dailies that many would include pyshic damage as that fits the whole vice theme. Unlike other shadow classes in the case of fury I can see fire damage as well as rage says either fire or even darker cold. Plus a blackguard can sneak a normal paladins powers as well, something that deals radiant damage.

The necromancer on the other hand...special effects to control and command them make more sense then damage effects, like the riders.
 

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Incenjucar

Legend
To be fair, psychic and fear are now Nethermancy and not every Necromancer will also be a Nethermancer.
What is the cold power you refer too? I maybe have missed the preview.

I was strictly talking about the theme of the class. What WotC actually does with it I can't assume, but "necromancy" includes a LOT of possible keywords, unlike "pyromancy."
 

Walking Dad

First Post
I was strictly talking about the theme of the class. What WotC actually does with it I can't assume, but "necromancy" includes a LOT of possible keywords, unlike "pyromancy."
Don't assume, read the Design and Development article. They clearly stated:
Nethermancy became the magic of darkness, and its powers involved magnifying fears, creating and manipulating darkness, and forming it into monstrous forms.

As well, many nethermancy spells dispense with necrotic damage altogether and instead deal psychic damage, or impose nasty conditions such as that bestowed by the energy drain power.

Also there is no Pyromancer or Necromancer class. They are all mages. So you could for instance have a Pyro-/Necromancer with a staff of fire, changing his necrotic damage spells to fire to ignore the undeads (or others) resistances.

BTW, the specialization I really dislike so far is 'Evocation'.
Pyro/Enchanter is a great combo IMHO.
 

Aegeri

First Post
Wrong:
I never said ignore resist is not Ok, as a mastery feature it is acceptable. But not at novice level. As the evocer thatuses different kinds of elemental damage gets it at level 10.

Because he's a generalist and avoiding resistance is as simple as changing powers. A necromancer (probably not nethermancer) relies on necrotic damage types and will most likely be taking them. To the point where they get a cantrip to potentially deal with necrotic damage (an actually poor attempt at solving the same problem).

On thinking about things I now think the cantrip is even more awful than just an action sink. It could have totally justified itself for anyone by being any resistance. Not just necrotic. That could have its uses, be pretty interesting and not feel like a hacked in mechanic.

The more I think about this book, the more I become disappointed in many of its design decisions.

Why does it make sense?
Because it is the capstone feature that only a dedicated necromancer can achieve, not a nethermancer or illusionist that dabbles in necromancy.
You need to pick the school for it to be useful and if there is a feat available at level 1, this just makes your argument rather bemusing. Because then your illusionist could take a feat at level 1 and be BETTER than the necromancer (A so called "specialist"). That just fails to make sense, unless there is no such feat and then other characters might as well ignore the powers in this book.

If you are a specialist, you can dedicate all your feats on one thing. Which means that you will become more powerful.
But if you don't have abilities to negate resistance, you play catch up the entire time and that is just silly. You already pay a terrific cost at the door using necrotic due to how widely it is resisted across the game. It means a "feat tax" becomes mandatory. I just think it's smarter design to build the classes feat tax into it and be done for the day.

And adding vulnerabe 5 on undead creatures sounds a) flavourful and b) extremely powerful.
It has its uses sure, but it's also an extremely narrow effect that bothers a specific type of enemy (albeit what I think is a classic trope for DnD). So it's actually not that great for one of your at-wills due to its use being niche. 1d8+int necrotic damage on one target is exceptionally poor - unless it is

A) Undead

B) One of the rare monsters that regenerates/gains temp HP.

So it's actually not that brilliant compared to many other Wizard at-wills, which are stronger individually than that power and effect everything. So it should have a strong rider for its specific type of enemy, so when it is useful it's great (and in an undead themed campaign is a must choose!). I would recommend a wizard pick that power up in my Dark Sun game - for example - but I would make it clear in my Eberron game it is absolutely useless (as hardly any undead whatsoever are used in the entire game). One of them is filled with undead and the other one has barely any - except the odd cameo maybe once an adventure (if that).

So adding on reducing damage by resistance to whatever damage it does do - despite the rider - is really adding insult to injury. My power that is supposed to be super effective against undead, doesn't actually let ME effectively hurt them very much (without an AP?). Or at best bring my allies attacks up to parity with its potential resistance? If my allies are using necrotic, I better hope I have minor actions to use or the 5 vulnerable is basically just bringing them up to parity with everyone else.

While the radiant mafia party are tearing apart undead so hard that they are "Vulnerable 5 what?". Or did we forget that a simple base damage type in the game - radiant - does what your AT-WILL that has to hit does against undead but better? But again, it seems "Let's make completely suboptimal options for no reason without considering anything else in 4E and how it interacts" is apparently "GOOD DESIGN". Somehow. We don't need to make necrotic into radiant damage, but we can bring it up to par with everything else and then make its benefits - well - BENEFITS and not just action sinks/stuff you have to do just to reach par. That's silly. That's just totally silly.

And I repeat myself and say: non undead creatures with necrotic resistance, like devas have a good reason to resist necrotic.
There are precious few of these though - most of the things that resist necrotic damage are undead. Again, you're not really justifying why necrotic - the second most commonly resisted damage type in 4E just in case we've forgot this somewhere - should be doubly punished.

Just as a side note: that blank pyromancy ignore resist at level 1 seems too early too, but scorching burst is bad enough as it is.
The pyromancer was simply built on solid common sense design. A lot of creatures resist fire, so we need to give them a way of negating it as they'll have to pay a feat tax anyway. Thus they inbuilt into the class. This to me was actually a really smart decision and given - again - monsters are attempting to under emphasize resistance since MM3, it fit in with the way the game was moving. To see the designers apparently flip-flopping on their decisions months after publishing essentials indicates some severe schizophrenia as to what they are trying to achieve.
 
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Matt James

Game Developer
This to me was actually a really smart decision and given - again - monsters are attempting to under emphasize resistance since MM3, it fit in with the way the game was moving.

Nah, I liked it more when we were just blathering idiots who had no concept of game design principles ;)
 

Aegeri

First Post
Nah, I liked it more when we were just blathering idiots who had no concept of game design principles ;)
To be honest, I only really disapprove of certain decisions post-essentials. For example, one of the things I loved most about 4E was that races didn't have ridiculous negative penalties to pigeon hole them into certain classes. Although ability scores can still do that, there really isn't too much stopping a player from being any race/class combination. You might not be optimal, but the maths in 4E are generous enough you can overcome having a 16 in a primary stat most of the time. You can find things very hard though in some cases, but at least you weren't doubly punished.

Now HoS introduces races with negative penalties, pigeonholing them in some cases beyond ability score mods. This is a huge step back from the core design of 4E and I just don't see the point of that. It introduces class builds that use one of the most disadvantaged damage types in the game, but apparently expects them to use niche powers and action sinks to get around that.

Personally I hope the book is a mere blip on the radar and it's back to stuff like Dark Sun in future. Though I am becoming increasingly aware Dark Sun may be the last book I truly was excited about in the remainder of 4E. That makes me sad - especially as someone who was utterly turned around by how good some of the last books released like Psionic Power and Dark Sun were (Both books together really made me reconsider my long standing hatred of psionics, which I have held since second edition!).

Edit: Of course monster design gets better and better and better. There isn't enough praise in the world for how great many of the MM3, MV and DSCC monsters are. I will be buying Threats to the Nentir vale so hard it will practically explode in my hands.

Edit2: Though then again, maybe there is a hint of truth to that statement Matt ;). When I look at the MV wraith it's a fun, interesting monster that adds to an encounter. When I look at the original MM wraith, well I don't need to say how awful that thing was to fight :eek: Perhaps PCs are going backwards and monsters are constantly improving :D

Edit3: I am also super sick of the current design direction in repeatedly republishing - as much as possible - Wizards/Clerics/Fighters/Rogues and other PHB classes.
 
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I don´t like the meenlock. It can so easily dominate the whole party. I don´t know if they went overboard with some monsters in MM3...

I also don´t think that the drawbacks of the shadow class are that meaningful in play. Not more than beeing small and having a speed of only 5... which you actually counld interpret as "gnomes are also unfairly penalized"

I am also very fond of the necromacer design from what we have seen. I guess the next book may be more to oyur tastes Aegeri. Dark Sun may have been nice, but i am turned off by inherent bonuses. I believe it is an unnecessary fix. But this is just my personal opinion no one has to share, and i can accept that.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
I think inherent bonus has it's place: A magic item scarce setting.

Cannot say much about the new monster design, I have been mostly a player in 4e.
 



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