Design & Development: The Warlock

[Aust Diamondew]

Pick one:
1) D&D is about heroic characters and I don't want a class devoted to Evil in the PHB.
2) I don't want the Warlock class's fluff/power descriptions to be solely tied to evil. It's restrictive.
3) Having Warlocks who, in the PHB, have their emphasis in EVIL is bad PR for D&D.

That's what I've heard thusfar.

Hero doesn't necessarily equal good.

Achilles, the quintessential hero, was one mean SOB. Probably CN or CE in D&D terms.
From more modern stories we get Conan, who isn't a good guy either but is heroic.

 

[Gloombunny]

I think it comes down to the fact that core PC classes should be generic as possible.

Fighter: no preconceptions of morality, he can be a knight templar or a cold hearted killer.

Rogue: only preconception is that he should be good at getting past traps for most parties, a secret agent for the court or a cut throat assassin.

Cleric: has a holy patron who gives him powers, can be Pelor or Vecna

Wizard: studies arcane magic and casts spells through that understanding, can be an illusionist who uses his magic in defense of his town and entertainment or could be a necromancer who stalks the graveyards looking for his next vile undead slave.

Warlock: Sure we got a one line snipit that the patron could be feral or shadow based in addition to infernal, but to be honest both of those sound not very good to me either, and in the 3.5 write up for warlock there was a one line snipit that they could get powers from fey or other outsides....then the whole class was demon themed all the powers the DR/silver ect.... So I don't have faith in WoTC to make feral or shadow that much different then the infernal warlock.

So Warlock is not generic it is a going the exact opposite road that they are taking Paladin in.

Um, I honestly don't see how warlock is less generic than your examples.

And you must be really happy that druids aren't in the PHB1.

 

[Paraxis]

Um, I honestly don't see how warlock is less generic than your examples.

Because he is very dark themed Infernal is EVIL no way around it make pacts with Infernal creatures is very bad, Shadow sounds not that much better seems tied to Shadowfell the place that is associated with undead, Feral springs to mind dark and savage fey like beings.

So all dark, all bad, no happy no shinny.

All other classes now that they have made Paladins of all alignments possible are full spectrum any can be dark and evil any can be happy and good. Except it seems for the warlock.

And you must be really happy that druids aren't in the PHB1

No they fixed Druids in 3E by having them be only one facet of alignment as neutral, true neutral druids did suffer from the same issues as paladins and the new warlock. But in 3E I had plenty of good and evil druids in my games, in fact evil druids were a common thing, (Hippie Bunny Hugging Eco Terrorists = Perfect Evil Bad Guy).

 

[Piratecat]

Please reply to this message and for once try and make yourself clear instead of this rubbish you seem to be repeating.

Quit bickering, folks, and that goes for everyone involved. Henry already made it clear that personal jabs on anyone's behalf won't be tolerated.

 

[Hussar]

No they fixed Druids in 3E by having them be only one facet of alignment as neutral, true neutral druids did suffer from the same issues as paladins and the new warlock. But in 3E I had plenty of good and evil druids in my games, in fact evil druids were a common thing, (Hippie Bunny Hugging Eco Terrorists = Perfect Evil Bad Guy).

But, the point is, despite the alignment restrictions, Druids were incredibly narrow in focus - nature/wilderness. Take a druid dungeon crawling and he's lost most of his spells and focus. Rangers suffer from the same issue - very narrow focus.

Yes, the warlock description as it stands is pretty dark. True. But, we haven't seen two thirds of the rest of the description, so, I'm going to wait out on this for a bit.

 

[Andor]

Yeah, that ends it for me. There's a name for a character that marks and murders people to gain power from inhuman masters, and it's "non-player".

Really? We always call those people "adventurers".

 

[Andor]

I just don't like the boon of souls bit...

If it’s a mechanic it limits what I can do with the class flavor (because they need to kill people to power abilities… that’s kind of evil, no?) also it seems they send the souls to their patron. I have a feeling that warlocks may be limited to “evil villain status” in the Arcanis setting. And hell, if I was playing a paladin (good alignment) I would be horrified by the “marking of souls” bit.

And marking souls doesn't strike you as at all similars to the Paladin's famous "I detect evil! Die Evil baker!"

 

[Paraxis]

Let me just quote the PHB:

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil diety or master.

Most player characters are good or neutral rather than evil. In general, evil alignments are for villains and monsters.

The first six alignments, lawful good through chaotic neutral, are the standard alignments for player characters. The three evil alignments are for monsters and villains.

Ok so lets break this down a bit.

Good = respect for life and concern for sentient life, if you and your groups have been playing them as cold blooded goblin slayers who kill women and children for being green and short well thats you but it's not Good.

Evil = killing for sport or out of duty to some evil diety or master, this is exactly the flavor of the warlock that we have been presented with.

The other quotes are there to remind everyone that this is supposed to be a game about fighting against the Darkness and Evil....I thought 4E was going further along that path with the whole "Points of Light" thing...players are light against the darkness....but what I'm worried about is it seems that Tiefling and Warlock both scream they are the darkness. While taking away the only becon of light left the paladin and making him just another tool for any one and giving the darkness a class all to itself.

 

[pemerton]

<snip precis of Jack Bauer's bizarro-world moral universe>

Cadfan, I really enjoyed that post. Thanks!

 

[grimslade]

Let me just quote the PHB:



Ok so lets break this down a bit.

Good = respect for life and concern for sentient life, if you and your groups have been playing them as cold blooded goblin slayers who kill women and children for being green and short well thats you but it's not Good.

Evil = killing for sport or out of duty to some evil diety or master, this is exactly the flavor of the warlock that we have been presented with.

The other quotes are there to remind everyone that this is supposed to be a game about fighting against the Darkness and Evil....I thought 4E was going further along that path with the whole "Points of Light" thing...players are light against the darkness....but what I'm worried about is it seems that Tiefling and Warlock both scream they are the darkness. While taking away the only becon of light left the paladin and making him just another tool for any one and giving the darkness a class all to itself.

Ok. I see the Infernal pact Warlock as being evil by your quote serving an evil master and all, but the Shadow and Feral may not be. If the patron of the warlock is not evil then the warlock killing non-innocents for them is ok by those definitions, right?
The warlock is not a class that is going to substitute for a 1E paladin. I have never seen a rogue that fits that stricture well either. I could puzzle one out for both but it is a stretch. A chaotic good 'lock who serves Herne the Hunter to cull corruption from the Feywild's herd? I could see that. A Lawful Good 'lock who works for a Grim Reaper type entity to usher the souls of the dead through the Shadowfell to their ultimate destination works too.
There should be mechanics to support this flavor though and all we have seen are the infernal pacts powers. I hope that the Shadow and Feral are linked to the pact source rather than a good-evil axis. A summon the maw of the Great Bear to bite your foe or the chillng maw of the grave opens and pulls you foe into it for a round when the foe returns he is wounded by the reality of his mortality. Cheesy but differentiated enough to seperate the different pacts.
We shall see what is to come.