Design & Development: The Warlock
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Zamkaizer
First Post
Xorvil, the infernal warlock, pointed his twisted onyx scepter at the the minotaur. His eyes radiating a furious rouge, he cackled, "consider this a preview of your ultimate fate."
On the ground the minotaur stood upon appeared a pulsating swirl of diabloic scribings - a thousand curses undoubtedly too vile to be uttered by mortal tongues. From the writings suddenly erupted an ethereal mass of squealing imps and hideous claws, which quickly engulfed beast. Despite his immense strength, the minotaur was powerless against the swarm, which pulled him ever downward, through time and space, and into the demiplane of Vgar'Znik, domain of Xorvil's infernal patron, and realm of eternal torment. There, he would experience, for but a moment, the unspeakable tortures inflected infinitely upon it's denizens.
It's thrall temporarily out of the picture, Xorvil turned to the hobgoblin slaver. "The brutal effectiveness with which you broke the will of your slaves is remarkable. My master will be pleased to have your soul bent to his will."
From the terrified hobgoblin's chest twisted a thin wisp of smoke. The slaver began screeching and tearing furiously at his own clothing. Finally, he managed to rip off his shirt, revealing to all the unholy title of Xorvil's patron branded over his heart. The smell of brimstone filled the air.
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Vardas, the righteous templar, pointed his jeweled gold scepter at the the minotaur. His eyes radiating a calming blue, he boomed, "You are not worthy of even this punishment."
In the air the minotaur stood beneath appeared a pulsating swirl of enlightened scribings - a thousand psalms undoubtedly too pure to be uttered by mortal tongues. From the writings suddenly erupted an ethereal mass of serene cherubs and angelic figures, which quickly engulfed beast. Despite his immense strength, the minotaur was powerless against the flock, which pulled him ever upward, through time and space, and into the demiplane of Avarganus, domain of Vardas' righteous patron, and realm of eternal judgment. There, he would experience, for but a moment, the holy light of justice, anathema to his dark soul.
It's thrall temporarily out of the picture, Vardas turned to the hobgoblin slaver. "The brutal effectiveness with which you broke the will of your slaves places you beyond redemption. Your vile soul shall remain for all eternity in the burning gaze of my master."
From the terrified hobgoblin's chest twisted a thin wisp of smoke. The slaver began screeching and tearing furiously at his own clothing. Finally, he managed to rip off his shirt, revealing to all the holy title of Vardas' patron branded over his heart. The smell of frankincense filled the air.
On the ground the minotaur stood upon appeared a pulsating swirl of diabloic scribings - a thousand curses undoubtedly too vile to be uttered by mortal tongues. From the writings suddenly erupted an ethereal mass of squealing imps and hideous claws, which quickly engulfed beast. Despite his immense strength, the minotaur was powerless against the swarm, which pulled him ever downward, through time and space, and into the demiplane of Vgar'Znik, domain of Xorvil's infernal patron, and realm of eternal torment. There, he would experience, for but a moment, the unspeakable tortures inflected infinitely upon it's denizens.
It's thrall temporarily out of the picture, Xorvil turned to the hobgoblin slaver. "The brutal effectiveness with which you broke the will of your slaves is remarkable. My master will be pleased to have your soul bent to his will."
From the terrified hobgoblin's chest twisted a thin wisp of smoke. The slaver began screeching and tearing furiously at his own clothing. Finally, he managed to rip off his shirt, revealing to all the unholy title of Xorvil's patron branded over his heart. The smell of brimstone filled the air.
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Vardas, the righteous templar, pointed his jeweled gold scepter at the the minotaur. His eyes radiating a calming blue, he boomed, "You are not worthy of even this punishment."
In the air the minotaur stood beneath appeared a pulsating swirl of enlightened scribings - a thousand psalms undoubtedly too pure to be uttered by mortal tongues. From the writings suddenly erupted an ethereal mass of serene cherubs and angelic figures, which quickly engulfed beast. Despite his immense strength, the minotaur was powerless against the flock, which pulled him ever upward, through time and space, and into the demiplane of Avarganus, domain of Vardas' righteous patron, and realm of eternal judgment. There, he would experience, for but a moment, the holy light of justice, anathema to his dark soul.
It's thrall temporarily out of the picture, Vardas turned to the hobgoblin slaver. "The brutal effectiveness with which you broke the will of your slaves places you beyond redemption. Your vile soul shall remain for all eternity in the burning gaze of my master."
From the terrified hobgoblin's chest twisted a thin wisp of smoke. The slaver began screeching and tearing furiously at his own clothing. Finally, he managed to rip off his shirt, revealing to all the holy title of Vardas' patron branded over his heart. The smell of frankincense filled the air.
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Zamkaizer said:
Dave killed his wife......after finding out she was sleeping with another man.
Dave killed his wife.....in self defense after she tried to kill him.
The devil is in the details, and in many cases so does good and evil. Even if Xorvil and Vardas are doing the exact same act in a similar way, it is NOT the same.
In one case, an evil doer is slain, good has triumphed. In another, a dark power has gained another soul and has grown even stronger. There's a difference there.
I am completely cool with the cliche of the guy with dark powers using them for good. Nothing wrong with that. But the majority of dnd parties are good, or at least supposed to be good leaning. Further, that includes characters like clerics that worship good dieties. These parties want good characters that just do good things. If the warlock is not a good fit in such a party then its not a good core class, it should be a prc or a supplemental class.
Lurks-no-More
First Post
It's a good thing that 4e is going to have warlocks who draw their power from sources other than pacts with infernal powers, isn't it?Stalker0 said:
hopeless
Adventurer
Oh dear...
Sorry but please reread the description again, every level the warlock gains puts them FURTHER into hock with their patron NOT LESS.
Hmm let me try and put this into as clear an example as I can; remember Star Wars?
Anakin Skywalker starts off as a prodigy of the force, he can understand and command powers those of his own age have trouble even comprehending but he suffers from an overdeveloped ego, his pride and ambition far outstrips the safety his teachers re trying to instil in him and the Emperor uses that to secure him to his side, this is the past you're describing he continues in his service becoming more and more powerful for his union with the dark side and in return he has suffered terribly, he caused the death of the woman he loved, the woman he originally used as his excuse for turning to the dark side, later on he finds himself crippled and permanently wears a suit of life supporting armour enhanced to keep him alive and restore some of his lost abilities most notably he is in pain for the rest of his life.
In the end he turns back to the light to save his son and in return is abandoned by the dark side he once served without which he begins to die the price he has to pay for his breaking the pact.
This is my point, this is why I said I would only consider a warlock if the character concerned would have to multiclass to get it and why I have always considered it a prestige class and NOT a core class.
To you it seems its just a means of gaining power and that power has no consequences, think again.
Ultimately its the dm's province but unless you are the dm or your dm doesn't understand this will NEVER be the case.
Okay just read that bit about two opposing examples of warlocks, curious albeit valid but wouldn't it be better served by using it to see if the recipient is worthy of redemption after all exposure to something that pure should elicit a response whether good, bad or merely indifferent but how would you handle that?
Would the holy version be able to tell if they've succeeded in turning their adversary from their dark path or is this a repeat of all those lawful stupid paladin problems?
Any chance of an example of nature's verison of this or fey?
Mustrum_Ridcully said:Hmm. I doubt that's how the Warlock would work, but it might be cool that, as he grows in levels, his powers become less and less dependent on his patrons, as he manages to shake off their influence on him (but keeping the good parts)
Sorry but please reread the description again, every level the warlock gains puts them FURTHER into hock with their patron NOT LESS.
Hmm let me try and put this into as clear an example as I can; remember Star Wars?
Anakin Skywalker starts off as a prodigy of the force, he can understand and command powers those of his own age have trouble even comprehending but he suffers from an overdeveloped ego, his pride and ambition far outstrips the safety his teachers re trying to instil in him and the Emperor uses that to secure him to his side, this is the past you're describing he continues in his service becoming more and more powerful for his union with the dark side and in return he has suffered terribly, he caused the death of the woman he loved, the woman he originally used as his excuse for turning to the dark side, later on he finds himself crippled and permanently wears a suit of life supporting armour enhanced to keep him alive and restore some of his lost abilities most notably he is in pain for the rest of his life.
In the end he turns back to the light to save his son and in return is abandoned by the dark side he once served without which he begins to die the price he has to pay for his breaking the pact.
This is my point, this is why I said I would only consider a warlock if the character concerned would have to multiclass to get it and why I have always considered it a prestige class and NOT a core class.
To you it seems its just a means of gaining power and that power has no consequences, think again.
Ultimately its the dm's province but unless you are the dm or your dm doesn't understand this will NEVER be the case.
Okay just read that bit about two opposing examples of warlocks, curious albeit valid but wouldn't it be better served by using it to see if the recipient is worthy of redemption after all exposure to something that pure should elicit a response whether good, bad or merely indifferent but how would you handle that?
Would the holy version be able to tell if they've succeeded in turning their adversary from their dark path or is this a repeat of all those lawful stupid paladin problems?
Any chance of an example of nature's verison of this or fey?
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Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I am aware of that, but I just liked to point out some (in my view) interesting ideas.hopeless said:
I'd call it a "orthogonal" answer - not following the current main direction of the thread (which is more about how the Warlock is dark and how it fits or does not fit in a campaign)
But what is with the other parties, that don't have these limitations? Why shouldn't there be a core class that they can use well in their game? Or do you think the split between parties with a use for the class and parties without the use is less than 1/8th (since the Warlock is only 1/8 of the core classes?)
Personally, I like the class because it adds another "spellcaster" archetype into the game.
We already have the caster that relies on learning spells (Wizard), and we have a caster that relies on his belief (Cleric).
But until now, there was no spellcaster that relied on pacts with otherworldly beings for his powers. It might seem that Clerics fit this idea, but they are not pacting with their gods - they really believe in the ideals of their gods. A Warlock is different, for him it is a way to gain power to support his own goals. He might have to do something to get the powers in exchange.
(From a Warlocks perspective: Having to fulfill some small tasks for his patron is a lot better than studying in a boring arcane library, or having to listen to sermons and following some bizarre rituals devised by his gods...)
Zamkaizer
First Post
Stalker0 said:
Oh, I wasn't trying to say an infernal warlocks actions aren't...morally out of alignment of with todays societal standards (one needn't play to the archetype though). I was simply saying that, should one like the abilities, but not the flavor, of 1/3 of the warlock class, changing a few keywords turns it into something completely different, if no less mean.
I think it comes down to the fact that core PC classes should be generic as possible.
Fighter: no preconceptions of morality, he can be a knight templar or a cold hearted killer.
Rogue: only preconception is that he should be good at getting past traps for most parties, a secret agent for the court or a cut throat assassin.
Cleric: has a holy patron who gives him powers, can be Pelor or Vecna
Wizard: studies arcane magic and casts spells through that understanding, can be an illusionist who uses his magic in defense of his town and entertainment or could be a necromancer who stalks the graveyards looking for his next vile undead slave.
Warlock: Sure we got a one line snipit that the patron could be feral or shadow based in addition to infernal, but to be honest both of those sound not very good to me either, and in the 3.5 write up for warlock there was a one line snipit that they could get powers from fey or other outsides....then the whole class was demon themed all the powers the DR/silver ect.... So I don't have faith in WoTC to make feral or shadow that much different then the infernal warlock.
So Warlock is not generic it is a going the exact opposite road that they are taking Paladin in.
If they wanted Warlock's to be all dark and evil all the time but left me Paladins as a force of only light and good then that would be ok, but they did not. All this talk about how you can change a few words and make a good warlock is the same thing that people said about making evil paladins, but when WoTC said paladins would be any alignment most thought that was a great idea long past its time if those same people think warlocks are good as written then they are hypocrites.
Fighter: no preconceptions of morality, he can be a knight templar or a cold hearted killer.
Rogue: only preconception is that he should be good at getting past traps for most parties, a secret agent for the court or a cut throat assassin.
Cleric: has a holy patron who gives him powers, can be Pelor or Vecna
Wizard: studies arcane magic and casts spells through that understanding, can be an illusionist who uses his magic in defense of his town and entertainment or could be a necromancer who stalks the graveyards looking for his next vile undead slave.
Warlock: Sure we got a one line snipit that the patron could be feral or shadow based in addition to infernal, but to be honest both of those sound not very good to me either, and in the 3.5 write up for warlock there was a one line snipit that they could get powers from fey or other outsides....then the whole class was demon themed all the powers the DR/silver ect.... So I don't have faith in WoTC to make feral or shadow that much different then the infernal warlock.
So Warlock is not generic it is a going the exact opposite road that they are taking Paladin in.
If they wanted Warlock's to be all dark and evil all the time but left me Paladins as a force of only light and good then that would be ok, but they did not. All this talk about how you can change a few words and make a good warlock is the same thing that people said about making evil paladins, but when WoTC said paladins would be any alignment most thought that was a great idea long past its time if those same people think warlocks are good as written then they are hypocrites.
Zamkaizer
First Post
Paraxis said:
But paladins and warlocks aren't diametrically opposed to one another. They receive their abilities from very different sources. Paladins, from what we've heard (almost nothing), are empowered by championing their worldview (shades of the Ardent?). Warlocks, from what we've heard (hardly anything), are empowered by making pacts with powerful entities. We aren't discussing clerics of Heronius and Hextor here, we're comparing apples and oranges.
The warlock does feel somewhat constrictive, but not in terms of alignment. Initially, warlocks will have only a triad of potential patrons - hardly comprehensive. Contrastingly, clerics have a literal pantheon of viable masters. If warlocks have one advantage over their ecclesiastical peers though, it's that they have much greater growth potential. It's much easier to add a new tyranical devil, manipulative shade, or fey huntmaster to your setting than an honest-to-god god.
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