Design & Development: Traps is up!

[Voss]

I doubt it'll be that simple. And it's probably not auto-detect anyway. And even if it is, it's just auto-pass for him, not his whole group. Which means that your hypothetical elf notices it and has to point it out to his group. And then they'll probably have to work together to figure out a way to disable it or pass it.

If its 10+ranks+bonuses vs. the static DC of the trap, it certainly is auto-pass or auto-fail. And if the DC is higher than the maxed out elf can actually attain, the DM is just being a jerk, because he's autofailing everyone. He might as well just randomly inflict damage on the party whenever he feels like it.

The articles comes right out and says that when something is hidden, the dm compares the passive perception score to the 'hide' DC.

If the person with maxed perception can point it out to the group before they blunder into it, its an auto-pass for them, too. Unless they purposefully ignore the warning.

Because I highly doubt that noticing the trap is the same as being immune to it.

Its effective immunity, unless something is hiding behind you to push you in.

You may have to find some way to disable or bypass it, but if you can't your options are soak the damage or walk away. Unless you really, really have to go through a specific route, you take no damage from any trap found with a perception roll.

Unless a monster can trigger it at you, in which case its artillery more than a trap.

 

[Klaus]

Acrobatics: encompasses Jump. Probably includes Balance, Tumble and maybe Climb.
Arcana: probably encompasses Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device and Read Magic.
Dungeoneering: probably Knowledge (dungeoneering) and some uses of Survival.
Nature: probably Survival, Knowldge (nature), Survival
Perception: Search + Spot + Listen + some uses of Sense Motive
Thievery: Disable Device + Open Locks + Sleight of Hand

 

[Xethreau]

I'm not sure what I think about static Perception AND static DC's, but I am more than willing to give it a shot.

Otherwise, I LOVE what I am reading here!

BTW, is someone making a running compilation of 3e skills? I am considering house ruling new skills.

 

[Khairn]

If its 10+ranks+bonuses vs. the static DC of the trap, it certainly is auto-pass or auto-fail. And if the DC is higher than the maxed out elf can actually attain, the DM is just being a jerk, because he's autofailing everyone. He might as well just randomly inflict damage on the party whenever he feels like it.

The articles comes right out and says that when something is hidden, the dm compares the passive perception score to the 'hide' DC.

If the person with maxed perception can point it out to the group before they blunder into it, its an auto-pass for them, too. Unless they purposefully ignore the warning.



Its effective immunity, unless something is hiding behind you to push you in.

You may have to find some way to disable or bypass it, but if you can't your options are soak the damage or walk away. Unless you really, really have to go through a specific route, you take no damage from any trap found with a perception roll.

Unless a monster can trigger it at you, in which case its artillery more than a trap.

That's the way I read it as well. Perhaps there is a level of understanding that is lost in the translation, but this looks like the GM either feels that the players have seen the trap ... or they haven't. Fait accomplit. Done deal.

I admit that this is a simplified and streamlined, but it doesn't look to be that much fun

 

[JohnSnow]

If its 10+ranks+bonuses vs. the static DC of the trap, it certainly is auto-pass or auto-fail. And if the DC is higher than the maxed out elf can actually attain, the DM is just being a jerk, because he's autofailing everyone. He might as well just randomly inflict damage on the party whenever he feels like it.

The articles comes right out and says that when something is hidden, the dm compares the passive perception score to the 'hide' DC.

If the person with maxed perception can point it out to the group before they blunder into it, its an auto-pass for them, too. Unless they purposefully ignore the warning.

You're right, a static DC for the trap means that it's auto-detect for the maxed out character. It's entirely possible that there's a potential for "searching for traps" when and where it's appropriate.

You may have to find some way to disable or bypass it, but if you can't your options are soak the damage or walk away. Unless you really, really have to go through a specific route, you take no damage from any trap found with a perception roll.

Unless a monster can trigger it at you, in which case its artillery more than a trap.

You're clearly assuming that traps are:

1. Single shot
2. Discharged once they fire.
3. Single check disable.

I doubt any of those is necessarily true. To me, the best traps for D&D to try to emulate would be the ones in the idol cave at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark or the challenges in the grail cave in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. There's some cool ones in other, Indy knock-off movies too, like The Mummy, or the Tomb Raider or National Treasure movies.

And none of those are single shot, easily disabled, or easily discharged. They're much more evocative.

 

[Stalker0]

Instead, characters have a passive Perception score that represents their Take-10 result for searching. When something hidden is in the area, the DM compares the passive Perception scores of the PCs with the DCs of the various hidden things in the area.

WOO HOOO!!!!!

 

[Voss]

You're clearly assuming that traps are:

1. Single shot
2. Discharged once they fire.
3. Single check disable.

I'm not, actually. I'm assuming that 'finding that trap' really means 'finding the trigger', which means unless you're absolutely forced to, you aren't going to trigger it.

I am a bit puzzled by the third one though. If your disable check (whatever its called now) doesn't actually disable the trap... what is it doing?

 

[kinem]

if the DC is higher than the maxed out elf can actually attain, the DM is just being a jerk, because he's autofailing everyone.
...
If the person with maxed perception can point it out to the group before they blunder into it, its an auto-pass for them, too. Unless they purposefully ignore the warning.

Its effective immunity...

So, there's no point whatsoever to traps, right?

The DM simply decides whether the party spots the trap or not, by setting the DC for perception either above the party's max or not above it.

But he can't set it above their max, because that would just make him a jerk who deals arbritrary damage to the party.

And he can't set it not above their max, because then they would automatically avoid it and it would serve no purpose.

Sounds to me like the old system is much better. (And the even older system was even better IMO.)

 

[Rechan]

The Article mentions that traps are like the encounter traps in Secrets of Xen'Drik. Here, I am going to post the stats of one of the example traps. (Mods, if this isn't cool with legal stuff, nuke this post).

Spear Gauntlet Trap CR 2
Description A 40ft by 40ft room with two entrances. Just inside one entrance is a pleasure plate that activates the trap. Once the trap is activated, a spear shoots up from each 5ft square of the floor each round. (Each spear emerges from a slightly different spot each round, so that creatures cannot simply stand between the spikes.)
Search DC 17: Type Mechanical.
__________________________________________________________________________
Trigger Location: Init +1
Effect Melee +4 Spear (1d8+1/x3) (each square each round).
Duration 5 rounds.
__________________________________________________________________________
Destruction AC 12, hardness 5, 10 HP (each square)
Disarm Disable Device DC 17 (each square): Disable Device 19 (Disadvantage: central disarm, location on the wall opposite the pressure plate).

If the party sees the trap, like big holes in the floor, then that's still not going to show them how the trap is armed.

If the party sets the trap off, they still have to react to it (and still have time to); the wizard can Spiderclimb or levitate over it, the fighter can smash the squares, the cleric can help the fighter, the rogue can tumble across the room to try and disarm.

If the trap resets itself after 5 rounds, then the party must bypass it. That's the challenge of the trap, getting past it, not just 'whoops, set it off, I'll suck up the damage, take a cure spell, now let's go'.

 

[JohnSnow]

I'm not, actually. I'm assuming that 'finding that trap' really means 'finding the trigger', which means unless you're absolutely forced to, you aren't going to trigger it.

I am a bit puzzled by the third one though. If your disable check (whatever its called now) doesn't actually disable the trap... what is it doing?

Or, maybe you miss it and the trap triggers. As long as it doesn't damage you right away, there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm suggesting that maybe "disable" isn't strictly "one check." If traps are supposed to be capable of being a complex encounter, it can't be disabled with a single check. Perhaps the disable check is part of it. Perhaps there's a strength check for the fighter, or a dex check that someone else has to pass.

The suggestion is that it's not as simple as "one check."

Besides, the "disable check" may be a bypass. With a higher check needed to permanently disable it. Like Indian Jones detects the needle trap in the cave, and then has to make dex/balance checks to avoid triggering the needles. Or when he figures out there's probably a trigger on the idol pedestal, which he then tries to "disable" by replacing it with an equal weight. As you know, he fails...causing things to start falling down all around him.

And that certainly wasn't a simple disable device check. It was much more interesting.

And thank you Rechan. I don't have Secrets of Xen'drik, so that example is very helpful, and fits completely with what I was thinking.