Design & Development: Traps is up!

[Slander]

Just an FYI on the trap rules for Xen'drik. There are actually two DCs. The first, and lower DC, is to locate the trap trigger(s). A second, higher DC, locates the trap itself or from where the attacks might originate. There can also be multiple disarm points for traps, some with lower DCs to negate specific trap sections, and other higher DCs to disarm the entire trap at once.

This would mitigate the all or nothing approach. The DM can ensure one or two characters will likely have the Perception score to notice the trigger(s), but they still might need to take time and figure out from where the trap is going to spring. That second check will likely be an active Search check (or whatever it is in 4E). And in the midst of a battle, those Search checks are going to be all the more stressful.

 

[Stoat]

Has it been confirmed that Disable Traps (the skill) is in 4E?

 

[Voss]

Not explicitly, but the article strongly implies that its covered under the Thievery skill.

 

[Stogoe]

That trap is made of win, Rechan. I really should have bought that book.

 

[Novem5er]

It would have been nice if the author would have included an example trap. This would probably ease some of the concern the article generates. I can't wait for 4e, but I'm starting to side with those posters who are sick of the marketing so far. Honestly, this article didn't tell us anything that we haven't been told before. I don't know where I read it, but I thought it was common knowledge that traps were going to be multi-stage events that involved multiple PCs, not just Rogues.

Anyway, I still find the idea great... even if the crunch isn't here yet.

To those who think auto-detect is bad... I think you have to think bigger. I tend to think of a trap as single pit or spear-launcher. I'm guessing this wont be the case any more (or at least the norm). Somebody mentioned the Indiana Jones traps... remember the crushing room?

To put that trap into D&D perspective: Indy's Perception score wasn't high enough to identify that the room was trapped. Then, that girl he was with triggered it by pulling the wrong lever. But how could she know which one was the right lever??? The DM must be cheating... not so!

Even though the trap was bound to be triggered and poor Indy was bound to be stuck in the room, the encounter isn't over. The DM isn't cheating any more than he is when he places monsters in the PCs path. Now that Indy is trapped, he has X many rounds before the ceiling collapses. He attempts to lodge a skull into the gears (rolls Dungeoneering vs DC 10) and manages to delay the ceiling Y rounds.

Outside, that girl has to reach in and pull the right lever, but the holes are filled with bugs. She has to roll Concentration vs DC 10 to ignore the crawly things (bites, pinches, 1 pt damage?) and pull the lever. Of course, that girl failed her first couple of rolls, so if Indy hadn't jammed that skull in the wheel, he would have been squashed. Thankfully, team work and some good ideas and rolls saves the day.

So even if the party is bound to fail the initial Perception roll, the trap can still be a fair and challenging encounter. Now, what if Indy would have made his initial Perception and realized the room was trapped? Well, that door was still closed, so he still had to pull a lever to get it open. He knew the whole place was rigged, but was forced to continue... now more rolls determine if they can disarm the trap before it's triggered.

Tell me, which scene makes for a better movie?

 

[Rechan]

Just an FYI on the trap rules for Xen'drik. There are actually two DCs. The first, and lower DC, is to locate the trap trigger(s). A second, higher DC, locates the trap itself or from where the attacks might originate. There can also be multiple disarm points for traps, some with lower DCs to negate specific trap sections, and other higher DCs to disarm the entire trap at once.

This would mitigate the all or nothing approach. The DM can ensure one or two characters will likely have the Perception score to notice the trigger(s), but they still might need to take time and figure out from where the trap is going to spring. That second check will likely be an active Search check (or whatever it is in 4E). And in the midst of a battle, those Search checks are going to be all the more stressful.

Thanks. I didn't really read that section that intently beyond looking at the cool trap designs.

 

[Voss]

Better movie scenes often don't make for better game encounters. You have to draw in and challenge the players as much or more than you have to design an epic scene. And, of course, you don't want to lose them in the scene description either. Try to describe all that to people at a table. Is it still interesting after the barrage of 'huh?' 'what?' and 'Can you describe X again?'

 

[Glyfair]

But he can't set it above their max, because that would just make him a jerk who deals arbritrary damage to the party.

Depends on style of play. In certain styles the DM has the trap set there so the PCs can notice it at higher levels when they revisit the area.

There also might be ways to adjust the Perception of the party. One example we know about is having the elf near the rogue, giving him a +1 to his Perception (unless the rogue is an elf). Perhaps there are spells with durations like revealing light that give a bonus to the parties Perception when used to find traps/secret doors. The DM could set the DC so they can be found if everything is going, but won't be found if it isn't.

And he can't set it not above their max, because then they would automatically avoid it and it would serve no purpose.

Just because they find it doesn't mean they can automatically get around it. Finding the trap doesn't mean avoiding the trap.

 

[frankthedm]

So, there's no point whatsoever to traps, right?

The DM simply decides whether the party spots the trap or not, by setting the DC for perception either above the party's max or not above it.

But he can't set it above their max, because that would just make him a jerk who deals arbritrary damage to the party.

And he can't set it not above their max, because then they would automatically avoid it and it would serve no purpose.

Sounds to me like the old system is much better. (And the even older system was even better IMO.)

agreed

 

[LightPhoenix]

One of the things that I hope is in the book but was left out of this article is partial successes with regards to skill checks. That way the "auto-pass" phenomenon might only be a guide to do a full search for traps, since you might only notice (to continue the SoX example) holes in the floor, but not exactly what happens.

[EDIT] In addition, if a trap affects multiple people at once, Perception might be a way of avoiding it. Or, passing the Perception check might give a bonus to Acrobatics, for example.

Also, Cadfan's example (awesome!) might go something more like this:

DM: You charge through the door into the kobold nest. Its a large cavern with high ceilings, about 30 feet across, and about 60 feet deep. It slopes upwards towards an altar, behind which is the kobold chief cleric. Kobolds are... here, here, and here. *places miniatures* They've clearly prepared for you, as evidenced by the spikes here, and here, behind which their archers stand. *points* Roll initiative.
Players: *roll dice*
DM: Ok, the order is, Ranger, Kobolds, Wizard, Paladin, Warlord. Before we begin, here. *DM passes a note to the Ranger*
Ranger's Player: OH GEEZ! Guys...
DM: WAIT! You can't show them the note. If you want to tell them something, do it in character on your initiative.
Ranger's Player: Oh, ok. Uh, I'm first, right?
DM: Yeah. Go ahead when you're ready.
Ranger's Player: I dive head-first behind the nearest bit of cover, looking around frantically as I yell, "Guys, something's not right here! I have a bad feeling about this!"
DM: "Okay, roll your Perception check... 18? You notice the Kobolds are avoiding the area near the staircase, but you can't make out anything specific in the chaos. You do notice several Kobolds behind the barricade taking aim..."
Ranger's Player: "INCOMING! Watch out for the stairs!"
*Continues battle*