Design & Development: Traps is up!

[outsider]

As a primarily thief/rogue player, I really like what I'm seeing here. Having to say "I search for traps" every time the DM finishes with his room description was quite frankly stupid and annoying. I got sick of that about half way through my first ever adventure, and I've been stuck doing it for about 15 years since then. Passive searches=happiness.

Also, I find the more interactive traps far more interesting. The trap somebody posted here from Secrets of Xen'drik sounds pretty freaking awesome, and gives me alot of faith that WoTC really knows what it's doing here.

And as far as traps being "useless" if you can detect them goes, frankly that's untrue. They won't have the insta-gib potential anymore, but they will still be a hindrance. Have you ever had a group that just walks away from a treasure chest just because there is a trap on it? In my experience, most groups will try to find a way to get that chest open without getting themselves killed.

 

[Grog]

On a second look at the article, it sounds like you can still search for traps. The take-10 is only assumed if you don't say anything. In that case it's OK; all traps will have DCs above the take-10 but below take-20.

Or not.

 

[Grog]

Depends on style of play. In certain styles the DM has the trap set there so the PCs can notice it at higher levels when they revisit the area.

There also might be ways to adjust the Perception of the party. One example we know about is having the elf near the rogue, giving him a +1 to his Perception (unless the rogue is an elf). Perhaps there are spells with durations like revealing light that give a bonus to the parties Perception when used to find traps/secret doors. The DM could set the DC so they can be found if everything is going, but won't be found if it isn't.

Or maybe, if they trigger the trap, it doesn't do damage right away. Maybe the doors to the room slam shut and the ceiling starts descending slowly. Or maybe it's like the rolling boulder trap from Indiana Jones. There are lots of things traps can do besides "instant damage."

 

[JohnSnow]

I actually avoided the crushing room because it's, in my opinion, the weakest of the traps in the Indy movies. That said, it's a lot cooler than most of the traps in D&D.

People might talk about what makes for better movies not necessarily making for better games, and that's partially true. However, sometimes what makes for better games is figuring out how to make the scenes play more like movies. Not like a movie, just more like one. Exciting beats boring. A triggered trap beats waiting for one to go off, and so forth.

That's not to say that you can't have tense moments disarming traps, but even when you fail, it seems to me it would be better if MOST traps didn't kill or injure you right away. Kinda like the whole idea of Save or Die spells...rounds where you can take action to avoid the worst are a good idea.

 

[Rechan]

Or maybe, if they trigger the trap, it doesn't do damage right away. Maybe the doors to the room slam shut and the ceiling starts descending slowly. Or maybe it's like the rolling boulder trap from Indiana Jones. There are lots of things traps can do besides "instant damage."

Or the room starts filling with water while doors open, letting skeletons crawl in.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Consequently, we thought about simply "disappearing" traps from the game, but then we decided to take a shot at fixing them first.

THAT bit worries me, it shows a mind set I'd feared..."if it's har/ddiffcult, remove it, let's make this a simpel game for the MMO crowd!" Blech!!

However, the rest of the article sounds very good. As DM I've always assumed folk were takign general care where danger was obvious (ie in a dungeon) and given rolls when traps etc were aorund, but the "Take 10" rule here is very good, this I like.

Perosnally I don't bung traps in just because I can, *rolls eyes*. Who's crazy enough to have lethal traps aorund, without good reason or means to bypass them? Thus, if it was lair, there's always some way around or to deactivate them. Favourite being the tower of a encromancer, riddled with guardians and traps, but most easily bypassable by levitating through a (non-detection) illusionary wall on the ceiling near the entrance, which is what he'd do when coming into his home...

Stoat,
From Races and Classes it says TRAP FINDING is a feat, Rogues get it automatically, but *anyone* can buy the feat as normal. The devs don't want the game stuck in the "we need a trap moneky and healer" foolishness, which I heartily agree with: any party should be viable (optimal is another matter).

Traps are (usually!) not somehow magically aligned so that only rogues can disarm 'em, for goodness sake

 

[Lackhand]

THAT bit worries me, it shows a mind set I'd feared..."if it's har/ddiffcult, remove it, let's make this a simpel game for the MMO crowd!" Blech!!

Perosnally I don't bung traps in just because I can, *rolls eyes*. Who's crazy enough to have lethal traps aorund, without good reason or means to bypass them? Thus, if it was lair, there's always some way around or to deactivate them.

Seems to be a contradiction here. Also, with what the article actually says. Traps aren't "hard or difficult", they're just... not as much fun as they could be. I know, I'm drinking the 4e kool-aid, but that doesn't stop it from being true.

If you wander into the Tomb of Horrors, you know you're in for a meat-grinder of a funhouse where every step could be death. Awesome! However, in many adventures, this translates into, as the article says, you either cast Immunity to DM Priggishness, Detect All Traps, or spend literally all night from the session combing 10' of the dungeon in every way you can think of.
Blech.

An auto "the party will fail to find this trap given sensible precautions/the party's precautions are sufficient" is nice. It means that you can say "you pass by the arbitrary arrow trap in the hallway, where it would catch badguys, easily" if you don't want it to tie up a lot of time, and if you do want it to tie up a lot of time, hey, you have the tools for that too.

Complaining that they've taken away the Hammerdriver (it's a hammer that only works on screws!) and replaced it with a shiny screwdriver and a hefty hammer is fun but not necessarily worth it.
Then again, this is EN World and we're all (readlurality) DMs here, and nifty ones, so we all already ran our games this way already, right?

 

[Glyfair]

Traps aren't "hard or difficult", they're just... not as much fun as they could be.

And I agree. I barely ever used traps in 3E (indeed, I didn't really use them much in the AD&D days, either) because the methods of dealing with them were tedious. That's the same reason we ditched mapping the dungeon.

Sure, there are some ways the methods of having the players explain exactly when and where there are searching can lead to fun. There are reasons that having the players map the dungeon can lead to fun. However, in my experience you end up with 5-10 minutes of fun after hours and hours of tedium. If I want tedium I have more productive things to do then game.

If 4E can keep about the same amount of fun dealing with traps and can get rid of most of the tedium, I'm all for it.

 

[outsider]

THAT bit worries me, it shows a mind set I'd feared..."if it's har/ddiffcult, remove it, let's make this a simpel game for the MMO crowd!" Blech!!

You didn't actually quote the reason they thought about making traps disappear, and it has nothing to do with making things "easy". Here's the actual reason they gave:

By the time 3rd Edition rolled around, traps had become a much smaller part of the game, something you might run across once or twice in an adventure -- and rarely very satisfying when you did. Who wants to roll an endless series of mostly pointless Search checks? If the players decided to simply explore the dungeon and search for the "fun" and got whacked by a trap instead, they felt like they'd been sandbagged by the DM.

It has to do with fun, not with difficulty. I pretty much always tell the DM I search for traps as soon as he finishes with his room description. Thus I'm getting my check in every room anyways. Problem is to get those checks, I have to repeat the phrase "I search for traps" a good 20-30 times a session. That is EXTREMELY boring, and really quite aggravating. They are trying to make the game more fun, and frankly this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I like the focus on what's actually fun: dealing with trap. As opposed to earlier additions, which put the focus on searching for the trap.

Remember that scene in The Gamers with the Rogue character? "Well of course my high level rogue would be searching for traps!". It's funny, and it's true. Forcing players to literally, specifically say "I search for traps" every time they take a 5' step... holy cow that's boring. That's not fun. Time is precious, and time at the gaming table is better spent on more fun activities.

As for the "but a character with maxed out Perception will auto-detect!" complaint: so what? If a player specifically builds his character to be the world's best trapfinder--taking every Perception-boosting race, skill, class, and feat--then that player should expect to see a return on that investment. Hell yes the character engineered to be a master trapdetector should auto-detect most traps. That's what his character is built to do. That's the reason his character exists.