Design Space - What are the biggest gaps in 4th Edition?

[Incenjucar]

Mass combat is definately something they need to make some rules for. They don't neccessarily need to build a campaign around it again, but it's something I've seen a lot of players express interest in but really isn't the easiest thing to homebrew. It actually builds into a lot of the other ideas here. Adventurers with professions can better-equip their armies, armies need keeps and kingdoms to defend, and social combat is as vital to governing as martial combat.

 

[mudbunny]

This is an awesome thread. I will be including it in my report to WotC next week.

 

[hayek]

Allow me to echo my support for:

• More powers triggering off of CA beyond a rogue/thief
• Rules for mass combat/armies

Also, I think there is room to bring back uber-bad-ass character defining magic items like you had in 2E (i.e. Holy Avenger, Staff of Power, Ring of Invisibility).

To give these rare items awesome powers and keep them balanced, you simply give them powers that are "Restricted". Then you could just add a feat or an Encounter power that every class can take that gives someone access to a rare item's Restricted power. e.g.:

Vorpal Sword - has all the standard properties/powers commensurate with the current crappy excuse for 'rare' items. Then add: [Restricted] (Encounter) Trigger: You hit with this weapon. Effect: Add 4[W] damage to the attack.

The owner would take the Encounter Power "Restricted Magic Item Power", which says: You can use the Restricted item power of a magic item of a level equal to or less than this power. (The Encounter power would be available at every Encounter power level, higher level ones just unlock higher level items, which of course will have better powers. A low-level Vorpal Sword might only add 1 or 2[W].)

Then you can have a Staff of Power that actually lets the owner use it to launch lightning bolts and fireballs at enemies, or a Ring of Invisibility that actually regularly turns its owner invisibile.

A feat could be used for more rinky-dink properties of items. Boots of Speed give +1 speed, but have a restricted property requiring a feat that gives you another +1 to speed.

You could drape a Holy Avenger in awesome powers (like the dream item it used to be), with a lucky owner spending multiple Encounter powers/feats to get its full benefits such as an Encounter power to deliver a devastating blow of radiant damage that stuns a target. Bonus to saves against all Fear, Charm, Psychic attacks. A daily power to resist 10 all damage for the battle. etc... items would be cool again!

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Also, I think there is room to bring back uber-bad-ass character defining magic items like you had in 2E (i.e. Holy Avenger, Staff of Power, Ring of Invisibility).

To give these rare items awesome powers and keep them balanced, you simply give them powers that are "Restricted". Then you could just add a feat or an Encounter power that every class can take that gives someone access to a rare item's Restricted power. e.g.:

So basically you'd handle iconic magic items like Themes? I like this idea, it also reminds me of unlocking the properties of magic items in Earthdawn.

 

[hayek]

So basically you'd handle iconic magic items like Themes? I like this idea, it also reminds me of unlocking the properties of magic items in Earthdawn.

Ah, yes! Thank you for summing up my idea much more clearly and succinctly!

 

[Kannik]

What major open design spaces (and not just monsters) do you see in the game, particularly those that could be filled through the pages of Dungeon and Dragon?

Definitively for me it would be:

a) Non-combat/encounter support:

• Professions/Hobbies/other expertise (ob-shameless plug, see the first link in my .sig for my take on it)
• Similar to above things to round out characters to offer/support more RP opportunity and even enrich the adventuring day
• How kingdoms/city states/villages/etc are run and politics (and how PCs can interact therein)
• Strongholds/fortifications/trade posts for PCs to found/run

b) Larger-scale combat rules to allow a PC to partake in a larger campaign (heck, take the excellent 3.5e book about this, alter it to fully take advantage of 4e and release it). I ran the Bloodstone Wars module and would've loved to have this (and I can use it for an upcoming module!)

c) Better selection/organization of rituals, alchemical items, other bits that expand character utility/options without necessarily making them stronger in combat and that open up alternate options of doing things (ie, getting creative)

d) Flavour bits, either as great unique magic items/artifacts/spells/rituals, snippets of NPCs or backstories, interesting setting locations, stuff that anyone can use in their campaign world without too much hassle, yet drip atmosphere. For the items/spells not just nifty in terms of game mechanics, but nifty in theme/history (to give new DMs examples of what they can do/create).

e) Themes (from DS) - make a whack of generic ones so we can apply them everywhere

f) A simple long list of just about every item you can ever think of, double checked to be sure the prices make sense. (maybe it's just my players, but they're always asking for things not on the list of equipment/costs )

Those would all be great. :>

peace,

Kannik

edit: Thanks mudbunny for taking these to WotC for us!

 

[IanB]

Rituals, rituals, rituals. The entire rituals system needs to be taken out back and completely redesigned into something that is both usable (but not overpowered) by PCs but also successfully models all of the old magical plot hooks that the old pre 4e spell system used to provide:

- long term charms/suggestions
- summoned outsiders/raised undead
- recurring badguy escape method

And that's just to name a few, there are others.

My single biggest pet peeve with 4e is that you have to handwave these things away with rituals that players can't learn for some reason. I am fine with doing it occasionally for plot purposes, but it gets old to have situation after situation that you have to handwave with 'oh uh, it is a ritual, no there's no copy in a book though', especially when converting older modules.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Also, why just Strikers? I'd love to see a Controller with a class feature that said something like "If you hit an enemy that is granting you CA, that enemy is slowed until the end of your next turn." And then, of course, that Controller would have a bunch of feats and powers that capitalize on both CA and the Slowed condition (although World Serpent's Grasp might've made this too powerful, I think you get the idea).

CA: it's not just for Rogues anymore!

I like this idea! My party rogue is terrific at getting combat advantage and has turned into the most effective striker in the party because of it, surpassing the ranger.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I think biggest thing that 4e can improve on is things to do outside of combat. Professions, Strongholds, Mercantilism, Politics, Kingdom making. Everyone wants to turn these things into Skill Challenges or Hand-Waving and get back to the combat and personally think that there is alot of fun potential in those things.

Excellent GMs can probably run these sort of things for their players as is, but I am not an excellent GM and could use all the help I can get.

We did get an article on Strongholds a few months back. I quickly came to the conclusion that they overpriced everything by a factor of 10. Supposedly we were supposed to get Professions in one of the cancelled books so we should be seeing that sort of thing in a Dragon Article someday.

In my last campaign, which was a 2 1/2 year long 3.5E campaign, we did have players that put skill points into various non combat skills. We even had one PC that put a lot of ranks into Cooking, ended up buying masterwork and then magical cooking equipment. It was a good way to introduce role-playing at higher level, as he could prepare a meal for a king or queen and then meet the royal chef, get some good gossip, etc. It did not take a huge amount of time in game, but it became a ritual in game for this guy to seek out the local cooks & compare/compete against them.

I introduced something like that in my current 4E campaign - giving each person a choice of one Perform or Craft type skill that they would be considered Trained in. Not for a huge effect on their character, but just some background flavor for each of them. It did not take away from their normal skills - this was something on the side.

 

[Incenjucar]

Another major design space I can think of: Class Creation. In 2nd edition, class creation rules were in the DMG (I don't recall where they were in 3rd), but 4E has at most briefly mentioned the topic and moved on. Considering how formulaic 4E is, it shouldn't be too hard to devote at least an article to class creation guidelines for those who haven't figured out the [W] progression thing on their own, and to give some advice on how to value different abilities and different types of multi-attack effects. This falls under advice more than rules, but it's still a good place for some fresh text.