Destructive Terrain and more dynamic battlefields

[greyscale1]

Here are some house rules for more destructive terrain I was considering. Please give me your opinions!

Basically, this system generates a flat Object damage number to be applied to obstacles when characters or enemies push each other into them.

Character Level (char doing the moving) * Tier (1 heroic, 2 paragon, 3 epic)+ primary attack stat = Object damage per square pushed.

You apply this damage to objects when a creature is pushed 'against' the object (or wall at higher levels) per extra square pushed. If the object damage exceeds the hp of the object then the object breaks in some way and the movement continues as normal. A destroyed object leaves behind a square of difficult terrain.

For example, a level 9 fighter uses a move that pushes an enemy 2 squares backwards. There is a square between the enemy a normal wooden door behind it. The enemy moves back into the empty square and then crashes into the door's square. A normal wooden door has 20 hp. Because the enemy had only 1 square of movement left the door takes 13 damage (lvl*teir+str[4]). It is cracked, but nothing mechanical changes.

Lets say that same fighter uses the same attack only now there is no space between the enemy and the door. The enemy has 2 movement squares backwards, so the door takes 13+13 damage. Thats more than the doors hp so it splinters and the creature is now standing in a space of difficult terrain. (if the door had less than 13 hp, he would have continued 1 space further).


Still with me? Not too complicated right?


Additional rules:

Large creatures deal *2 total damage when being smashed into things. huge *3 and gargantuan *4

Objects larger than 1 square, each square they cover has 50% of the total HP and can be destroyed individually. If a creature larger than 1 square is pushed into such an object, each square of object being moved into takes equal damage from the effect.


I feel the scaling mechanism, while nonstandard, does a good job of making the tiers feel different. At heroic tier, you will be hard pressed to damage any relatively sturdy structure, whereas at epic tier you can do things like jump of your hypogryff and dropkick a god forged titan through a castle wall. (castle wall made of stone = 200hp per square [according to the rules i presented] Object damage = {30(char level)*3(Tier)+9(str)}*4(Gargantuan) = 396! Thats enough to punch through a 9 foot wall of solid stone! NOW YOU FEEL EPIC.



Okay, disclaimer - this is obviously very showy, but doesn't have that HUGE of a mechanical effect. Consider it if you want epic to feel more epic.

I am on the fence as to whether I should allow pulls and slides to work too. As DM I would play it by ear, but I as a written rule I think I need to be more specific - there seems to be a ton of people online who hate rule 0. As it stands there are many slides and pulls that would make sense and many that would not - use your judgment. I would personally allow something thematic like bigamy's grasping hands slamming the enemies into a middle-area statue even though it is not technically forced movement.


Again, questions? Comments? Was I clear enough?

 

[greyscale1]

Hate to bump my own thread, but I would really like you guys' opinion on these rules!

 

[mmaranda]

I like the idea but I think the multiplier for level is a little extreme (PCs might quickly be knocking bad guys through dungeon walls even before they hit paragon). I'd remove the multiplier.

Actually the more I think about it I'm inclined to say for every one square of movement spent colliding with an object the object takes 5-damage (10 at Epic levels).

Example: PC hits a Hobgoblin and can push it three squares. It has one square it can be pushed before hitting a wooden door. The PC can now elect to push it into the door and break the door. or they can stop the push early (as is always an option)

If the PC could have pushed the Hobgoblin 4 squares the hobgoblin could have been pushed into the door, two additional squares of movement spent to break the door and then one more square back past the doorway.

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

I'd hate to bring inconveniences such as logic and physics into this but wouldn't a creature that causes 395 damage to a wall take the same amount of damage from the collision? And if so, why are we bothering with all these weapons and other forms of attacks?

 

[mattcolville]

I'd hate to bring inconveniences such as logic and physics into this but wouldn't a creature that causes 395 damage to a wall take the same amount of damage from the collision?

Not necessarily, it depends on how the wall reacts. If the creature transfers enough momentum into the wall, he'll be ok and the wall will take all his energy.

If the wall doesn't budge, then the energy is basically reflected back into the creature and he takes the damage.

This is why a headbutt hurts them more than you.

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

An example of a castle wall was mentioned. I don't think castle walls have crumple zones. If something is sturdy enough to have a number of hit points that matters in a situation like this, it should be hard enough to cause damage to whatever is going through it. Or splatters against it, as the case might be.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

For a descriptive style that has cinematic, wall smashing combats.. this looks like a good start.

However, I am with the others when I say that the best way to breach a castle wall should not be kicking an opponent into it...

I would lean more towards mmaranda's suggestion, 5 points per tier per square. Mulitplies by size categories as in the OP.

This means a heroic tier fighter has problems pushing an opponent through a wooden door, but at the Epic level you still wont be drilling your way through the dungeon with minions.

A Paragon tier hero would be able to burn 2 squares of a push to crash through a normal wooden door.


As an optional rule, as mattcolville points out, perhaps have one square's worth of damage rebound onto the target when the obstacle would not shatter/break/crumble.

 

[greyscale1]

To respond to some points made:

The reason I decided against damaging enemies when they hit walls was because the powers already usually do all the damage that is meant + it is hard to balance the damage using the same mechanism + it also makes forced movement significantly more powerful. I thought that using it as an almost purely cinematic tool for players.

For those of you who think this gets 'unrealistic' in the higher levels, I see where you are coming from, however, let me remind you that my example was: A DEMIGOD KICKING A GIANT ROBOT IN THE CHEST SO HARD THAT IT ACTUALLY STUMBLED BACKWARDS. Havent you ever seen a movie with some sort of giants fighting? Godzilla? Any giant robot anime? King kong? When a powerful creature punches the other creature and sends it flying, its the punch that does the damage, and the collateral damage is just added excitement.



Seriously guys, that is basically what I am saying. a square of solid dungeon stone wall is like 200hp, unless you are seriously strong and fighting giant enemies, its difficult to damage that with a push until epic level. Say you have a move that pushes 4 squares, you are level 18, and have a str of 22 or so. you are dealing 42*4=168 damage to 1 segment of the wall - not enough to break it, and this example uses a Powerful push power from and almost demigod HERO into a non-reinforced wall and it doesn't break.

Either way this is mostly for cinematics like smashing people through bay windows (hp 7 medium, glass, reinforced). I would not allow players to ever use this in an obviously metagamey way, and unless it was cool, cinematic, or whatever, would probably not actually allow wall squares to be destroyed by a push. Visibly damaged perhaps, but unless they were thin or the players were doing it strategically I would just ignore these rules.



This is just a quick system to give some cinematic power to the players without spending more than half a second on easy rules adjucation. As always, rule 0.


Any other thoughts?



Edit: Hmm, maybe minions shouldnt do significant damage to anything, perhaps 25% or 50% normal damage?

 

[Aloïsius]

Stone wall : never breached. Come on. A few years ago, a 700 pound rock rolled from the hill above my parent's house. That's an old european house, with 2 or 3 feet deep stone wall. We heard a big "boom". The wall was intact, with some superficial scratch. Well, if you want "Naruto-like" fight, you can consider it can be breached at epic level.

Brick wall : never breached, unless at epic level or if there is no (or deficient) masonry (if so, it should be possible at paragon level).

Wood wall, tree-trunk like : never breached, unless epic level. This stuff is freakishly resistant (because it's elastic)

Wood wall, plank/ "dirt" wall and other frail stuff : easy at epic level, moderate at paragon level, difficult at heroic level.

I know, this is not a system, just a guideline for what a system should allow.

 

[bardolph]

Here's my "Quick and Dirty" solution:

If the damage done by the pushing attack would have been enough to break the object in question, then SMASH, they shatter the object (with no extra damage to the creature).