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Developer's Roundtable: Mystic Theurge

It seems I always seem to agree with Monte. :)

Especially, about the lack of "flavor".

Flavor wise, there really is no difference at all from a Cleric / Wizard multiclass. However, from what I am hearing, this class is the intended route of the Wizard / Cleric multiclass anyway so i guess, in this case, it isn't so bad.
 

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I much prefer Monte's Hallowed Mage to the MT. For those that don't have the BoHM, essentially it required Wiz5/Clr5. After that, the HM progresses with its own spell list. The trick is that this custom spell list (containing both arcane and divine magics) starts at 4th level. They also gain some other abilities such as maintaining turning undead.

I agree with Monte, as usual. The real crime is that its flavorless and boring. A list of abilities instead of a class, and not very interesting abilities at that.

With them saying 'you can't really judge out of context' I'll be going over the SRD with a fine toothed comb before I buy anything. Heck, maybe I'll dump it all together and play Arcana Unearthed :P
 

The more i read about it the less I like it. I was thinking it was somewhat balanced before, it just made a unapealing multiclass combo possible, but I'm not sure anymore.

Monte and SKR made some good points, I guess I'm in the I don't know camp, but I'm heading towards the too good camp.

Oh well the more I hear about 3.5 the more disapointed I get. I'm getting 3.5 but I think I'll play and run AU.
 

Grazzt said:
I completely agree with Monte on the point that the requirements should be stiffer (like Wiz3/Clr3 or whatever).

It's the point where I don't agree, myself. The problem is not at low level (when the character is trying to qualify, or had just taken his first few levels), but at higher levels. Rather than adress the prerequisites, one has to remove 2 or 3 pairs of +1. I'll remove them at level 4 & 8, as I said.

IMHO, it's enough.
 

I am in the too powerful camp.

Here is my fix, which could be implemtented via prestige class or feat(s) (which I prefer).

Instead of +1 caster level in each class, do some sort of psuedo caster level. With this pseudo caster level you have a certain number of spell slots that could be used for _either_ class. For example:
Clr3/Wiz3/MT1 gets the benefist of a 7th level caster and has the following slots:
6/4/3/2/1 to fill the slots the character can choose spells from _either_ the Cleric list or the Wizard list.
Obviously some sort of formulae would need to be worked out for bonus spells and for classes w/ differing rates of aquiring spell slots. At one time I would have thought such a formulae would be too complicated and esoteric for a non-house rule for D&D, but after perusing Savage Species I don't think anything could be too complicated.
 

My thoughts on the Mystic Theurge

I feel like I need to put my two cents in here as well, here are my thoughts:

1) The Mth class is overall very boring statistically, lacking anything special other than saying I am a better Clr/ Wiz multiclass combination. The idea though, even a generic one is intriguing, but has not been executed very well.

2) What Monte said about the class is boring to play at first and then comes into its own later, is true. No class should be punished for 3 of its first six levels (ie the required prerequisites of the Mth class) and then become caught up like that.

3) The sheer number of spells that this player has to keep track of is a pain to them, their group and their DM. That is not a fun game design.

4) The real problem here is the multiclassing rules for spell casters. Now a Prestige Class is patching it. That is not a healthy solution for a long-term problem. A player should not look at a multiclass combination of any kind and then be forced into a prestige class to pull that core class combination off. This form of "fixing" only hides the problems and encourages future game material to imitate this sort of game design, which is flawed. What happens as we see Prestige classes that combine all of the classes in some form or another, do we loose the basic classes and just have players playing prestige classes?

5) Mathematically there is a mistake in this class. That is in how its prerequisites are being compared to its level progression. This prestige class itself is not balanced because it is progressing in two caster levels simultaneously. There is no way to making this balanced mathematically. Here is why - whatever you are requiring as a prerequisite up front is your "cost". This cost is going to vary from minor to extreme based on whatever amount of "levels" you require as a cost. The class allows progression in two caster levels at the same time, ultimately devaluing the prerequisite cost unless the cost is to high, in which case the class never comes into its own. The best-case scenario with this class is to have it really fall behind and then it eventually catches up with other classes. Currently this prestige class falls behind 3 levels, then it progresses to much in two levels and causes more and more game complication as it progresses.

6) On that note - why should any form of basic class combination be a prerequisite for a prestige class. If a new player reads the multiclass rules and then looks at this prestige class, the message is that the multiclass rules don't work some of the times. That obviously says - fix the multiclass rules in regards to spell casters. But instead the designers have opted to make a temporary patch that causes another set of problems. In all fairness I understand the complications of what "fixing the multiclassing rules" entails.

A better fix would be a prestige class or series of feats that create synergy between the abilities of a player’s multiple spell casting classes. Overall, I would have to say that the Mystic Theurge is not a very creative approach to the problem and will cause permanent damage in both the fan base and standard of rules if it sees release.

Designers please consider this: I am a player and I want to have a wizard/ druid, cleric/sorcerer, druid/ranger or whatever. The natural tendency is to multiclass core classes together, and then this prestige class tells me that I am making a poor choice in turn forcing me into the prestige class and taking my idea away from me as a player. One thing I know for certain is that Prestige Classes should not do this and they should not over shadow the choice of multiclassing core classes as an option. They are meant to add special abilities, campaign focus or rare rules not meant for 1st level classes onto a character.

Finally I have one more thought for all of you:

Would a prestige class that was obviously superior to any non-casting multiclass combinations (i.e. using rogue, fighter, barbarian or monk) be balanced?

Thank you for listening,

Nate
 

My first-glance opinion is ... it is a bit much for a 10-level class. It works, in my opinion, pretty well for a 5-level class.

I would like to see a feat or series of feats that maybe grant +1 caster level to multclassed spellcasters only. That might negate the need for such a prestige class.
 

Re: Re: Developer's Roundtable: Mystic Theurge

heirodule said:
2. Actually this gives it alot of cool flavor. The one class that can make the maximal use of metamagic feats!
That's not flavor, that's game mechanics.
 

RangerWickett said:
<snip>
Right now, I find it a bit silly how they've divided up spellcasters.

I wholly advocate a single primary spellcaster class, with additional specialized classes. :)

Amen. I've had couple hazy ideas how to do this. A master spell progression and then give feats (or class abilities) to give access to different domains and schools.

The Mystic Theurge has sacrifice some higher level spells for a ton of lower level spells, but they also get immense number of different spells to choose from.

Isn't this like a 6th level Barbarian/6th level Fighter getting 4 attacks at +6/+1/+6/+1 instead of +12/+7/+2?
 

I would like one primary spellcaster class, but if they made that change I don't think they would be justified in calling such a game D&D anymore. I think it would work well for a "d20 Fantasy" game though.
 

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