Developer's Roundtable: Mystic Theurge

[PA]

Of course, the preferable way to make this work would be to have only one spellcasting class, which can be diversified out the wazoo.

Sovereign Stone.

Y'know, a class that is to magic what the fighter is to combat. Then depending on which spells you learn, or which magical feats you take, you could create huge diversities of characters.

I can see it: one feat to cast spells in light armor, another (with the precedent as a prerequisite) to cast spells in medium armor, and one feat more (with the precedent as a prerequisite) to cast spells in heavy armor.

One feat to be able to switch to cure spells, possibly with a religious requirement.

We could live with only three classes: the warrior-type, the mage-type, the skillful-type. It has been proposed before. Heck, d20 Modern does something very close to that.

Of course, I don't see it happening with D&D, as it would change too much. Some will even argue that we could as well have a skill-based game, rather than a level-based game. And why not? I mean, the advantage of a level-based game is simplicity. You said "I play a 5-th level thief" and everyone understood and knew what role you would fit in the party. Now, "I play a 5-th level rogue" does not mean you have any thief-like ability: you may be a diplomat instead, or whatever. The current system is a compromise between a level-based and a skill-based system, without the clarity of the former and without the customizability of the latter. A compromise can still be good, but I'm not sure the best one has been chosen.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

My first-glance opinion is ... it is a bit much for a 10-level class. It works, in my opinion, pretty well for a 5-level class.

Been saying this, myself.

I do have 2 options in my head that I would consider using.

Option 1: (5 Levels)

Prereq: As Written + Magic Domain
Special: Divine Focus for all Arcane Spells, Add Arcane and Divine Levels as a True Necromancer does
Levels 1 through 5: +1 in any Arcane Spellcasting Class and +1 in any Divine Spellcasting Class

Option 2: (10 Levels)

Prereq: As Written + Magic Domain
Levels 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9: +1 in any Spellcasting Class
Levels 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10: +1 in any Arcane Spellcasting Class and +1 in any Divine Spellcasting Class

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Either of these comes across to me as far more balanced and thematically solid.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Sovereign Stone.

And Midnight.

 

[widderslainte]

I would like one primary spellcaster class, but if they made that change I don't think they would be justified in calling such a game D&D anymore. I think it would work well for a "d20 Fantasy" game though.

Unlike Prestige Classes, skinny halflings, sorcerors, barbarians, wizards in plate mail with swords, and half-dragon monk-rangers. I don't buy it.

Don't get me wrong, I think clerics and wizards should be even more distant than they are. But if they're both going to use virtually the same mechanics, they shouldn't be split up.

 

[seankreynolds]

What I don't understand is why we haven't done something yet that makes spellcasting advance like BAB.

Hmm, you mean like fractional spellcasting?

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/fractionalspellcasting_adv.html

 

[Quinn]

What I don't understand is why we haven't done something yet that makes spellcasting advance like BAB. Pretend, for instance, that there is one chart that lists how many spell slots you get per day for any given caster level. Now, each spellcasting class has a caster level bonus, which stacks with each other spellcasting class's caster level bonus.

We'll say that wizards and sorcerers advance at a rate of +1 per level, clerics, druids, and bards advance at +3/4 levels, and paladis and rangers advance at +1/2 levels. For this to work, you'd have to have all the spells be on a single spell list, and differentiate the classes by their abilities instead of their spells available. Sorcerers would gain spell-like abilities, wizards would get bonus feats, paladins and rangers would get good attack bonuses and abilities, bards would get their music, druids would get wildshape and such, and clerics would get domain abilities based on their level.

You could also use Sean Reynolds fractional spellcasting table (posted on his website). For each level in a spellcasting class a character takes, he could gain a half-level in his other class. It seems like it comes out pretty close to the Mystic Theurge...a 10/10 Cleric/Wizard would have access to 7th level Cleric and 7th level Wizard spells.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/fractionalspellcasting_adv.html

 

[FireLance]

The Mystic Theurge has sacrifice some higher level spells for a ton of lower level spells, but they also get immense number of different spells to choose from.

Isn't this like a 6th level Barbarian/6th level Fighter getting 4 attacks at +6/+1/+6/+1 instead of +12/+7/+2?

Right. And so, as I said over at Technik4's thread, spellcaster levels ought to stack in the core rules. That way, a Clr10/Wiz10 would cast both cleric and wizard spells as a 20th level caster. This way, he gives up the higher level spells for more and more varied lower level spells, but his lower level spells are just as effective as those of a pure spellcaster.

 

[Monte At Home]

Hey, if Sean gets to put in a plug, I get to too!

In fact, I'll do two.

As has been said before, Book of Hallowed Might has a prestige class that addresses the same issue. Called the Hallowed Mage, it provides its own spell list, made up of various wizard and cleric spells on one list.

The upcoming Arcana Unearthed addresses this issue by allowing spellcasting to stack. Since there is basically one core spell list in this variant Player's Handbook, this works pretty well.

 

[cerberus2112]

Makes a weak option viable

Isn't one of the purposes of a prestige class to make a weak option viable? And no one can argue that the multiclass Clr/Wiz is a not weak option. I think the class works perfectly. When I played a Cleric, with the Str and War domains, I was constantly thinking about taking a level of Fighter to improve my fighting ability; but I never did it. Why? Because I wanted the more POWERFUL spells that I could only achieve by staying with a single class. Falling behind even a single level was far too much for me. This class drops you behind by THREE levels! No powergamer is going to do that, as either a cleric or a wizard, not when they realize they get a bunch more spells, but all those spells suck! It makes a weak option viable. You can conceivably play a Clr/Wiz or a Clr/Sor without falling so far behind everyone else that you are worthless to the party. Everyone complains about the high end, 16th to 20th level character with this class. Well, in most campaigns, you have to get there first; that's usually starting from 1st level. It's an interesting choice, but balanced, when you think about it in those terms and not just what he can do at a particular, arbitrarily high level.

 

[Quinn]

The upcoming Arcana Unearthed addresses this issue by allowing spellcasting to stack. Since there is basically one core spell list in this variant Player's Handbook, this works pretty well.

Monte, Is there any reason this system wouldn't work with 3.5?