Developing new paladin PrCs for Piratecat's game: come see the result! (updated 1/28)

[Spatzimaus]

Right, forgot one other thing. I'd make Extra Turning a requirement for the class, instead of requiring 8+ turns per day. Of course, the problem we have here is that you're not designing a PrC for the characters to develop towards, you're making a PrC they're ready for right now, so we're a bit limited by what Feats and abilities they already have.

Let's see... for Feats:
Mara: Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Mounted Combat, Extra Turning, Divine Might
Malachite: Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Divine Might, Extra Smiting

Well, they both have Power Attack and Divine Might; DM seems like a good prereq for the class. Also, Malachite gets Extra Turning as a Hunter of the Dead, so you could make the feat requirements be:

Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Divine Might, Extra Turning
and both of them would still qualify. Maybe drop the Power Attack.

 

[Urbanmech]

I think the class looks good. It is a great example of what a high level prestiege class should look like.

I agree with some of the other posters that there should be some distinction made between the Dawn and Dusk Knights other than just in the flavor text. Spatzimaus's ideas of spliting the powers seemed about right. This gives each character something unique to look foreward to.

I have to disagree with people who say this PrC is too easy to get into. The characters have to have been in the presence of the avatar of Aeos. Normally having a roleplaying requirement as part of a PrC is a bad thing when you are publishing them for the general public. But in your own game where you control the circumstances there is nothing wrong with setting some high RP requirements. Mara and Malachite have definately earned the reward and respect and awe that this class will bring (if the ghouls don't kill them).

 

[Spatzimaus]

I have to disagree with people who say this PrC is too easy to get into. The characters have to have been in the presence of the avatar of Aeos. Normally having a roleplaying requirement as part of a PrC is a bad thing when you are publishing them for the general public. But in your own game where you control the circumstances there is nothing wrong with setting some high RP requirements. Mara and Malachite have definately earned the reward and respect and awe that this class will bring (if the ghouls don't kill them).

I don't disagree with the general sentiment here, since we're designing a PrC for two specific characters, AND they need to qualify for it with their current abilities. You could drop the prerequisites altogether if you just care about that.

But, it'd be nice to make it a more general PrC, with a balanced set of prerequisites, for use in other campaigns. Every campaign has some god of light/sun/whatever who is strongly anti-undead. Making "Radiant Knight" as a general PrC is a very good thing.
In that regard, a roleplaying prerequisite like "meet an avatar of Aeos, and created in pairs" just doesn't help, and discussions about prerequisites become perfectly acceptable.

For example, we could replace the class' prerequisites with:

BAB: 12+
Alignment: any Good
Feats: Weapon Focus (any), Divine Might, Extra Turning
Special: Must follow a deity whose domains include the Sun domain
Special: Must have been exposed to the radiant light of your god's avatar
Special: Radiant Knights are always created in pairs. One follows the Path of Dawn, the other the Path of Dusk.

See? There you go. These prerequisites can be used in any campaign, are more balanced to the abilities of the class, AND Mara and Malachite both meet them.

 

[incognito]

Chiming in, 1 of 3

I see a lot of good things in this PrC, and some not-so good things.

The best thing: the ability to make choices as you progress in the PrC. There a PrC in "Masters of the Wild" that has this. Other PrCs should too.

The second best thing: the flavor is right. Many of the abilities are sun based, as are the "no game effect" powers. I like that there are dusk Radiant Knights, and Dawn Radiant Knights

The Worst Thing: Rekindle the Flame (Sp). It's ben mentioned before, so I won't harp on it. but I strongly think this one need some rework. Like an XP cost to bost the Radiant Knights AND the body is restored to holy ground (maybe in Celestia?)

I'm going to have to break this into a few posts, I think.

First: the pre-reqs, class skills, and progression.

The BAB requirement is very high. We (as readers of your SH), understand that this is meant to be a high level PrC, but in a more generic setting I have some trouble with such a high BAB req.

Also, you get BAB for "free" You needen't do anything but level to get it. Feats, and skills Pre-reqs require consious choices, and as such tend to be better pre-preqs.

Also, a great many of your feat pre-reqs can be over come with a Single level of fighter or paladin, or War domain cleric (most war domains have martial weapons). This mean's it isn't much of a requirement at all.

The undead turning pre-req (@ +8) means a cleric must have the extra turning feat, and a CHA of 12, or a Paladin must have a 20 CHA. Question - does this mean if Mara removes her Cloak of Charisma she can no longer access her PrC abilities?

What's needed here are skill requirements, and probably more feat requirements. The special is fine, but understand that it is high campaign specific, as many campaigns have 4 or less players, and you are asking for 50% of them to buy into this PrC.

Also, I know ride is on there for Mara, and Luminor, but it does not really fit the theme, or the intro. I know it's a "must have" for the player, so I would work the flavor text, the power's list (a bit more), and maybe even the pre-reqs to include some ranks in Ride.

Also, give back the fighter BAB - this is a fighter class, of that ther is no doubt - and there is only one stong save (fort), the HD type is d10 - I think it deserves fighter BAB., and really we are only talking about costing/giving the potential Radiant Knights 1 BAB (they will hit 20th before thay can complete out the PrC)

Oh, oh, oh - one in game effect of the flaor abilities - the PC can keep track of time, even when underground/inside.


Next post will break down the abilities, ability by ability

 

[incognito]

Chiming in, 2 of 3

Ability by ability, as promised:

Channel the sun I

Aura of Purity: [snip] all secondary effects that have not yet occurred of poisons already in effect are cancelled (as a remove poison spell).

>>>the secondary effect may be a bit strong. At high level, some poison DCs are very very tough, and to have this power snip that is tough. Better to grant the second save now, with the +4, a pretty significant shift

Breach the Shadow:
>>> Yikes! Again, pretty strong, my suggestion, if you keep this one, is to make it similar to smite. 1 ghost attack per turning attempt spent.

Bring the Light:
>>> Narrow ability, but handy when you have it! Is that 10 min a radiant knight level? or total level? (I suggest the former)

Eyes of the Sun:
>>>: so 5d8 ranged touch attack, I might ahve this one cost 2 turning attempts. Fighter types LOVE touch attacks! and 5d8 is not 1/2 bad, given there is no save, and no damage reduction for searing light.

Healing Light:
>>>: a smaller healing circle. Seems fine, given the radius

Sacred shield:
>>>no problem with this one.

A suggestion. Pick a radius either 10' or 15' have all the powers use the same radius to help with the bookeeping

Sense of Corruption:
>>>Perfect, Perfert

Shining Blade:
>>>Good, Stong, but not too strong.

Smite of Aeos:
>>>this one will always be used when the opponent is withing 5' of a wall. Just warning. There also should be a size bonus/penalty for this one. No one shoudl knock over an Iron Golem with this Power. (A colossal animated object has a fort save of +10, FYI)


Solar Resistance:
>>>this one does too much compared to the otehrs. Break it up, or tweak it depending on what is needed.


Sunlit Vigor:
>>Fine, Perfect, neat!

This PrC, if it is giong to have ride as a class skill, needs a mounted power in this grouping, please!


Next up: Channel II,III powers

 

[incognito]

Channel the Sun II

Blessed Aim:
>>>strong, gross, done as a free action. Maybe this should cost 2 turning attempts? Not sure how to tweak it, otherwise

Righteous Charge of the Dawn:
>>>Gahhh: FYI this is the Spirited charge feat, +CHA to AC, and does not require a mount (or a lance). Too strong. Needs to cost more, or do less or be a L3 ability, and/or have a channel 1 pre-req. [Sudder]


Forge of Aeos:
Should be 2d6 - it is not your fault if Players have holy weapons. There are other ability choices


Incandescent Strength:
>>>Fine, gross but fine, I'd leave out the minimum. No PC with this PrC has a low CHA

Radiant Blade:
>>Drop it, you have the duplicate ability in Channel I. I'm not sure you want overlap like that anyway.

Revealing Light:
>>>Too long, or to strong. For an hour a level, they should be able to see in magical darkness, and that's it (as flavor, maybe others could see them?). For a round a level, you could get the full monte. (heh, heh)


Channel the Sun III

Angelic form:
>>>Err, don't remember what this spell does - can I have a refresher?

Aura of Renewal:
>>>Yep, that sounds right. Great ability, strong, and thematic.

Holy Fire:
>>>Great ability, should cost 2 turns, 1/2 the damage is holy, right?

Smite the infidel:
>>> Ditto! (Great ability, should cost 2 turns, 1/2 the damage is holy, right?) Question - what if the enemy is an evil undead - 4d6?

Zealous Destruction:
>>>Gah! Nope, have to disagree here. You just made your cleric or paladin a fighter. Not fair to the fighter, who sacrificed 13 DEX, + 4 other feats to get to do this every once in a while. Since whirlwind is one of thse things that only happens once in a while, being able to use the pwoer 'only' X times a day is not much of a sacrifice. I might deep six this one, or require a more rigid channel power chain, or up the cost significantly.

maybe, maybe, maybe channel 1's should cost 1, channel 2's should cost 2, and channel 3's should cost...wait for it...3!...hmmm...well, it's something to consider

P-Cat - you be the judge. If you see a power I recomment cost "more" then bump in in Channel and use the cost structure above

Whew! that's a mouthfull too a while to write too - apologies for the typos!

Was I more tactful folks?

 

[Greybar]

Incognito said:

Radiant Blade:
>>Drop it, you have the duplicate ability in Channel I. I'm not sure you want overlap like that anyway.

That was my thought when I first saw this too, but Radiant Blade increases the multiplier, while Shining increases the range.

John

 

[Spatzimaus]

Channel the Sun II
Radiant Blade:
>>Drop it, you have the duplicate ability in Channel I. I'm not sure you want overlap like that anyway.

Note that Shining Blade changes the threat range, Radiant Blade changes the crit multiplier. Two different things. They also have different durations (one is CHA mod, one is class level)

I like the idea of making the CtS I powers take one turning attempt, table II taking two, etc.; it allows you to beef up the later powers a bit more. Otherwise, why take a power like Shining Blade in group 1 when Radiant Blade is better?

For BAB, I'm thinking either give full BAB and leave the saves as-is, or give 3/4 BAB and give a good Will save. After all, they aren't getting any spellcasting ability.

Incognito's comments made me think of something. Righteous Charge of the Dawn should require a MOUNTED charge. Otherwise I'd say it's too strong. But if you increase the costs of the higher powers it's fine.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

This is great! I'm looking forward to seeing the final version. Kudos to all involved!

 

[incognito]

That was my thought when I first saw this too, but Radiant Blade increases the multiplier, while Shining increases the range.

Errr...ahhh...darn...you're right. Sorry about that Pirate, old boy.

but the big question is (for those of you who were around for my rude tirade): How was my tact?