Developing new paladin PrCs for Piratecat's game: come see the result! (updated 1/28)

[Spatzimaus]

It's a wonderful class, no question. Please just accept these as minor nitpicks/suggestions; I think it's still easily playable in the current form, and fits with Mara and Malachite perfectly.

> Requirements: a little too easy, and a bit too biased towards Paladins. The Undead Turning automatically gives you the heavy armor and shield proficiencies (since it'd imply Paladin/Cleric), and Martial Proficiency (any two) would never be spent as a Feat; it'd just require one level of a class like Fighter or whatever.
So, it's simplified to Weapon Focus, Cleric/Paladin, BAB 12, and a roleplaying thing.

BAB 12 is pretty huge, especially for Clerics. So, it seems like this becomes a Paladin-only PrC. After all, would a Cleric sacrifice levels 17-20 for a PrC with no spellcasting? Not that that's always a BAD thing...

> The Dawn/Dusk thing: you just don't do enough with it IMO. It just doesn't seem to affect anything the class does. See below for a suggestion.

> Too many options for Channel the Sun I. I mean, this is a LOT of options. 11, and you only pick 2? I'd normally say to just make some of those as Divine feats, but there's a better option.

My suggestion:
Separate the lists of options into three groups: Dawn, Dusk, and Both. So maybe "Breach the Shadow" is Dusk-only, and "Bring the Light" is Dawn-only. "Sacred Shield" might be available to both.
The structure of the class is unchanged, but it now matters which path you follow.

My first guesses:
Dawn: Bring the Light, Eyes of the Sun, Shining Blade
Dusk: Aura of Purity, Breach the Shadow, Sense of Corruption
Both: the other 5
So each still has 8 options, but there's a bit more difference between Dawn and Dusk.

CtS II:
Dawn: Righteous Charge of the Dawn, Radiant Blade
Dusk: Forge of Aeos, Revealing Light
Both: the other 2 (Blessed Aim, Incandescent Strength)
Each has 4 options out of the six.

CtS III:
Maybe make Holy Fire the Dusk one and Angelic Form the Dawn one, but leave the other three as available to both. Since each person only picks one (and in the case of Mara/Malachite, neither reaches class level 5 unless you go Epic, right?), it's okay to have more overlap.

So, you'd write the abilities as:
Eyes of the Sun [Dawn]: blah blah blah
where any ability without a [Dawn] or [Dusk] modifier is accessible to both paths. In table I there'd be 3 Dawn and 3 Dusk, in table II there'd be 2 Dawn and 2 Dusk, in table III there'd be one for each... wow, nice pattern.

See, and I managed to get through the entire post without making a Wonder Twins joke about the Mingle the Light abilities!

 

[Piratecat]

Thank god; I'm terrified of Wonder Twin references.

The class isn't set in stone yet, and this feedback is fantastic. Thanks! I'll post a link here in my story hour as well.

You guys are right about the true resurrection, of course; I wanted a "Clear! ZZAP!" feel to the power. Hmmm... maybe if it brought them back at -1 hit point.... I'll mull it over after hearing more advice.

 

[dpdx]

See, "Wonder Twins" was my first thought, too, but I wasn't gonna say anything...

Anyway, I want to propose the following flavor ability: Mara and Malachite should immediately, thoroughly dry out in direct sunlight, whenever they exit water.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Cool class! I love the options concept; more prestige classes should offer a menu of abilities. And the flavor abilities really make the class stand out from the pack.

Suggestions:
1) Stipulate that all of the "aura" powers (those that affect allies within x feet) have the visual effect of a sunlight-colored aura. For Dawn knights, that aura is tinged red. For Dusk knights, it's purple.
Rationale: the Sun isn't subtle, so the aura powers should not be subtle. It should be clear that a knight is radiating his or her special power.

2) I second the suggestion to group powers into Dusk and Dawn categories. Might need to slightly alter the names of the powers.

3) Shining Blade and Smite of Aeos are so powerful as to be must-haves. They dominate the other, less crunchy powers. I'd limit the "Aeos as Forge" powers to only two or even one power, as they're just too good, and they don't add any cool special effects.

4) I'd add a couple powers that only work in daylight, or gain extra power in daylight. I'd also add extra powers for a Dawn knight who witnessess the first light of dawn or the dusk knight who catches the last light of day. Something like +1 caster level for any spell or effect cast at those exact moments, or some similar effect that must be utilized instantly.

5) Maybe add more flavor powers to 5th level (the highest level) Knights. Small powers, but more than the 1st level powers. Like burning undead within 30' for 1 point of damage per minute (applied at the end of each minute).

6) Add my Solar Power ability, or at least use the name. That's just too good of an opportunity for a pun.

-z

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

About Rekindle the Flame, by the time you get it in the PrC, Mara/Malachite will be level 20 or 19, respectively, Velendo would have been several levels past True Ressurection, and with a cost of 8 turning attempts, it will ensure that they don't do it more than once in a battle, probably only saving it for a major battle. It makes it an even harder decision since the class itself is fueled by turning attempts. Plus, they do have to get to the corpse within 3 rounds, which is easier said than done knowing what kind of evil DM Piratecat can be

(The only broken way is if Velendo takes the Heirophant PrC and takes the ability which allows him to transfer turning attempts ...oops, that's the munchkin bit in me)

 

[Spatzimaus]

Sollir reminded me that I hadn't even commented on the abiltiies themselves.

Most of the options seem nicely balanced. A few need a bit of work, IMO.

Eyes of the Sun: I'm not saying that a high-caster-level Searing Light is overpowered, but all of these abilities are quickened, right?

Solar Resistance: I thought followers of Aeos could already stare into the sun and can get a great tan.

Revealing Light seems awfully strong. It's like True Seeing, but you don't see polymorphed stuff... except that there's no 120' range limit. Oh, and True Seeing only lasts one minute per level, while you're looking at hours here.

Aura of Renewal seems too small. The radius and short duration just don't seem that great, although all of these things are just costing a turn attempt, so it can't be that bad.
I'd say double the radius, double the duration, drop it to Fast Healing 2. Something like that.

The Wonder Twin Powers, especially, seem a bit underpowered. Specifically, these two:

Rekindle the flame: not bad, but 16 total turn attempts AND you have to do it in three rounds instead of the decades that the spell normally allows? I know, it's a level 9 Cleric spell, way beyond what Paladins are supposed to do at all, but I'm just wondering how often it'd get used.
What you COULD do is say that since Radiant Knights are created in pairs, that this ability also allows them to True Resurrect their counterpart for 8 turn attempts.

Purification: six total turn attempts, requiring both paladins to focus their attention on one target (so not a combat thing), and it's like casting Heal except without the hit point...err... healing. It's not that it's a terrible idea, but if Tao or Velendo can just cast Heal it's kinda worthless.

You COULD just change it to a Heal, but my suggestion:
Purification: three turn attempts each; it affects everyone within 30' (including enemies) as if they had both Restoration and Negative Energy Protection cast on them, with caster level equal to the sum of the two Radiant Knights' caster levels.

Maybe say that this is an Aura, which requires you to stay within 30' of both knights AND they have to stay within 10' of each other, but I like it better as a "pulse" effect. It might need a bit of power tweaking, but you get the idea.

 

[nameless]

Re: Rekindle the Flame. Yes, they will be very high level and probably have easy access to True Ressurection, but not 'snap your fingers' easy. Since you don't even need a body for True Ressurection, all the wonder twins (sorry, too tempting) need to do is snap their fingers and their dead teammate is back in action and at full hp. If they didn't have a (Sp) ability, they would have to at the very least wait until the next day for their cleric to memorize True Ressurection, and probably go pick up a 5,000 gp diamond.

The fact that Paladins don't normally get this ability at all is relevant, but not that important balance-wise. They either have easy access to True Ressurection or they don't. It doesn't really matter where the spell is coming from, it just matters that it comes. The important thing in my view is that death is the second worst thing that can be inflicted in D&D (next to some kind of magical planar imprisonment like the Donjon card). It should be pretty darned hard to negate that, and nobody should be able to do it for free during combat. Thus my earlier suggestion. It is probably slightly more convenient to Rekindle the Flame in the same place a day later than a real True Ressurection.

Of course, it's ultimately Piratecat's call. I am but a humble board member.

 

[Allanon]

Well instead of making the power copy True Resurrection to the letter make it more to the

... I wanted a "Clear! ZZAP!" feel to the power...

Piratecat refered to. Make it nescessary to have the original body present. This way you counter one of True Resurrections biggest advantages and make it slightly more balanced. Countering things like destruction, disintegrate and the like should be more up Velendo's alley.
You could rule that the damage inflicted by massive flames or acid could fall under this ruling too, but that would mean nerfing the power a little bit to much.

 

[Bronz Dragon]

...I wanted a "Clear! ZZAP!" feel to the power. ..

*Flavour!*

when they use Rekindle the Flame, have M&M put their hands on the target's chest while the pray. Then, when they finish, A huge gob of pure sunlight slams from each of their hands into the target's chest cavity, bouncing them off the floor and possibly leaving a spiderweb of cracks in stone or other hard surfaces.

 

[the Jester]

Wow, I like it.

I think that the limitations on rekindle the flame are reasonable for an almost epic-level prc. I might tack some more prereqs on the class- like maybe 10 ranks in knowledge (religion) or something.

I like the idea of higher-level prcs that give you better goodies- a steppingstone to epic prcs, if you will.

I also think it would be cool to separate the powers into dawn and dusk. That's a great way to have the difference mean something more than a hint of flavor.

edit: Alternately, have you considered making it an epic prestige class with more prereqs and having them work towards it? Although they might wish something with a more immediate payoff....