[Devil’s Workshop] Abortion and D20?

[eyebeams]

I started out defending the product simply because people were attacking it without thinking. I did not actually expect it to necessarily be any good, I just failed to see what all the outrage was about. Now I have read the product I consider it to be a good one that does handle the topic maturely. If a product is bad, attack it because it is bad, not because it deals with something contentious or mature. There's a level of hypocrisy in the air when you consider books like Manacle & Coin, Shoah, Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Erotic Fantasy and others that deal with controversial subjects.

I wrote part of Manacle and Coin. There are people who really think there's a "controversy" around slavery? Wacky. I'm pretty sure that most people outside of snakehead gangsters, Omanese camel racers and other marginal groups think slavery is a Bad Thing.

Anyway, I think that having an Abortionist AdC is dumb and I have no faith in the product to explore this issue with any seriousness. For that matter, GrimJim's participation in this thread is understandable considering he has a fairly loathesome game about high school shootings of his own, which came to my attention after he used a real-life murder in my country to backhandedly promote it via livejournal spam.

There is nothing inherently wrong with using RPGs to explore this topic and I think WotC's reaction should be interesting. 4 years ago, I had ideas for three products that would by their very nature challenge to openness of the D20STL. I'd never release them for that now, but they aren't out *yet* largely because I don't think there's any sincerity or depth to be had from the outlines so far. They haven't matured.

Similarly, I have my doubts that *this* represents a mature exploration of the topic. It sounds like somebody copy-pasted open source (? After all, we're talking abouit, shall we say, the company of the purloined monkey) historical information and chucked a few AdCs in to justify the information. Charnel Houses of Europe: the Shoah was, on the other hand, produced party through extensive consultation with Holocaust survivors. If you're stepping up with significant issues, then you have a significant burden when it comes to showing that your product is worthwhile.

I don't think WotC will do anything about this because it represents a PR disaster if they do. If they do something about this book because of the topic, then they'll be making a terrible mistake. It's a pity that the book itself seems so cynically exploitative of that fact instead of actually interested in the topic.

Recoloured and flipped monkey madness!

 

[Committed Hero]

There are people who really think there's a "controversy" around slavery? Wacky. I'm pretty sure that most people outside of snakehead gangsters, Omanese camel racers and other marginal groups think slavery is a Bad Thing.

Nowadays, sure. 150 years ago, maybe not? The people fighting the US Civil War seemed to have been pretty divided.

 

[eyebeams]

Nowadays, sure. 150 years ago, maybe not? The people fighting the US Civil War seemed to have been pretty divided.

Yeah, but people weren't releasing RPG supplements 150 years ago, so equating it with abortion in terms of contemporary controversy for releasing such (as Densborough was doing) is extremely wacky.

 

[GRIMJIM]

I wrote part of Manacle and Coin. There are people who really think there's a "controversy" around slavery? Wacky. I'm pretty sure that most people outside of snakehead gangsters, Omanese camel racers and other marginal groups think slavery is a Bad Thing.

Well, for me and most of my countrymen there's no controversy per se about abortion, it is the woman's choice and that's pretty much that. But it is still a controversial topic to discuss. Perhaps 'taboo' would have been a better choice?

Similarly slavery is a contentious and difficult issue that people have heartfelt opinions and generationally hurt feelings about. Not necessarily logically, but there it is. There are topics that some will react to hysterically, no matter what they're actually about.

Take WW's PIMP for example, though its real crime was just not actually being funny.

Anyway, I think that having an Abortionist AdC is dumb and I have no faith in the product to explore this issue with any seriousness. For that matter, GrimJim's participation in this thread is understandable considering he has a fairly loathesome game about high school shootings of his own, which came to my attention after he used a real-life murder in my country to backhandedly promote it via livejournal spam.

Repeating tactics and repeating mistakes from other threads in other forums eh?
If at first you don't succeed, keep running headlong into the wall until your skull gives?

I thought the advanced class was dumb until I read it, I don't play a lot of d20 but still the information within the class has wider use and as a character concept for a modern game it works fairly well. I was pleasantly surprised.

As to my 'loathsome' game... have you bought it, played it, read it? No? Then you're making the same mistake the hyenapack did with this, again, passing judgement without playing.

As to the LJ post, the synchronity - and the blame game - struck me and it seemed relevent since that was what I was tackling with the game. Perhaps a touch too sophisticated for people who kneejerk.

I was aware of LPJs rep and still think this turned out well, all things considered.

 

[GRIMJIM]

Yeah, but people weren't releasing RPG supplements 150 years ago, so equating it with abortion in terms of contemporary controversy for releasing such (as Densborough was doing) is extremely wacky.

Desborough, not Densborough.

Or, you know, the nickname works too.

As I'm sure you had at the time with M&C there are people who think slavery is a taboo topic the same way there are people that think sex, or cancer, or rape or abortion are taboo topics. They're always going to react automatically to these 'danger words' regardless of the actual content.

As they have.

As someone who has, apparently, worked on contentious/difficult/taboo topics before one would think you would have a little more sympathy and a little less of an air of superiority.

 

[JPL]

Hello there

You have to purchase a product before being able to review it there and, indeed I did. Of course, it may appear that I could have simply worked it up from the press release but unlike a lot of people, it seems, I actually read the press release rather than going 'OMGWTFBBQ ABORTION!'

Jim, now that you've said flatout that you bought it, I won't call you a liar. The fact remains that there's nothing in your review that couldn't've been written sight unseen.

After making such a big deal about the kneejerk hyenapack over on RPG.net, it would've been pretty amazing if you had read the product and then said, "You know what? This really is crap, after all. Turns out all of you guys who said it was crap before you even read it were right, although I still maintain that one should not jump to such conclusions without first investigating, as I have done."

Tell you what, though --- I'm mostly skeptical about how useful this thing is in practice, as a game product. Run a game with it, Jim, and come back and tell us about it.

 

[GRIMJIM]

Jim, if you say you bought it, I won't call you a liar.

Tell you what, though --- I'm mostly skeptical about how useful this thing is in practice, as a game product. Run a game with it, Jim, and come back and tell us about it.

The criticism of their behaviour remains valid regardless of how the product turns out to be. I even, fate help me, actually looked at FATAL before passing judgement on that too. Criticism sight-unseen is the problem.

I don't play much d20, but I do write for it. I can see some of the feats etc in this being useful for political or protest oriented play in general. The idea of a campaign/game set in and around this sort of situation or area is appealing though and a great deal of the info is generally useful. I don't get as much time to play as I should like these days but I think an Unknown Armies or @ctiv8 game set arounda clinic is on the cards.

Your quotation btw is pretty much what I would have said had it turned out to be *insert derogatory swearword implying lack of quality*.

As to there being nothing that couldn't have been written sight unseen, I changed my mind over the advanced class and made mention of ways it could be used in a wider context that weren't apparent from the release.

 

[eyebeams]

As someone who has, apparently, worked on contentious/difficult/taboo topics before one would think you would have a little more sympathy and a little less of an air of superiority.

First of all, if someone believes that the morality of slavery merits some kind of controversy, they're a loon. Slavery is wrong. Secondly, if someone feels the need to project such a loony argument back to a fantasy world based on a historical system of slavery that hasn't existed for 500 to 1000 years, I would conclude that they were reaching. A lot. And thirdly, recoloured flipped monkeys.

 

[Urizen]

Why not just buy the product instead of speculating on how bad it may or may not be?

I think this is really a case of "you can't judge a book (or PDF) by it's cover."

I can understand not wanting to support a product based on personal beliefs, attitudes towards abortion, but the fact remains is that all this speculation is simply that: Speculation.

People are assuming the product is bad without finding out for themselves, and that's unfortunate.

I'm not trying to promote the book. I'm not affiliated with this company at all. I'm just saying that maybe people should take a peek at it for themselves before jumping to conclusions about the quality fo the product.

A product demo certainly would go a long way towards clearing up some of the cocnerns raised in this thread.

I say judge the product based on it's merits (or lack thereof).

But that's just me.

 

[eyebeams]

Well, for me and most of my countrymen there's no controversy per se about abortion, it is the woman's choice and that's pretty much that. But it is still a controversial topic to discuss. Perhaps 'taboo' would have been a better choice?

There's no moral controversy. As for discussion, I can see there being a small group of lunatics and crooks who don't want to discuss it, but small groups of lunatics and crooks shouldn't merit consideration here.

Take WW's PIMP for example, though its real crime was just not actually being funny.

I don't really see any serious discussion as to whether it's right or wrong for men to abuse women happening. Pimp was a stupid mistake for entirely different reasons, many of which have to do with a joke between half a dozen drunk guys being not nearly as funny or forgiveable in the form of a mass marketed product.

Repeating tactics and repeating mistakes from other threads in other forums eh?
If at first you don't succeed, keep running headlong into the wall until your skull gives?

Maybe you just shouldn't have done it, eh?

I thought the advanced class was dumb until I read it, I don't play a lot of d20 but still the information within the class has wider use and as a character concept for a modern game it works fairly well. I was pleasantly surprised.

How does this merit an AdC, for God's sake? What role does an doctor who specifically provides abortions (incidentally, "abortionist" is the preferred term used by antiabortion activists -- another indication that this product is, if you'll pardon the expression, ill-conceived) provide during an adventure that no other medical practitioner can? Does the character get abortions of opportunity? Abortions as a swift action? Abortion finesse? How is this not a very dumb idea?

As to my 'loathsome' game... have you bought it, played it, read it? No? Then you're making the same mistake the hyenapack did with this, again, passing judgement without playing.

I haven't played FATAL either.

I have, however, read your previous groundbreaking work about how fat chicks suck.

As to the LJ post, the synchronity - and the blame game - struck me and it seemed relevent since that was what I was tackling with the game. Perhaps a touch too sophisticated for people who kneejerk.

Do you often include links to products you want to sell in your innocent, sociopolitical commentary? Or is that just when you're making those comments in Chris Pramas' well-read blog?