Devil's advocate

[Stridercal]

Yay, first post!

I've been lurking, and have already seen a few folks raise these issues. So i'm asking for a devil's advocate to tell me why these are NOT good house rule fixes to the mentioned issues.

TWF sucks!
rule: twf now increases the primary weapon's damage die instead of adding +1 to damage

Archery ranger style is kinda weak
rule: couple ideas- give him another archery feat or maybe alertness; or let archery rangers get +2 with prime shot instead of +1

Greatswords suck (and 2h weapons are weak)!
rule: greatswords get d12, and two-handed weapons do strength and a half

Doomsayer's Proclamation is weak
rule: because of the lack of fear powers that require saves, make this power work like the Oracle's terrifying insight, complete with a daze for a miss. I'd bump this up to 16th level and push Doomsayer's Oath down to 11th. This is powerful, but i think makes up for the split primary attributes needed by the Star Lock.

What you folks think? Any other good suggestions?

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

Yay, first post!

I've been lurking, and have already seen a few folks raise these issues. So i'm asking for a devil's advocate to tell me why these are NOT good house rule fixes to the mentioned issues.

TWF sucks!
rule: twf now increases the primary weapon's damage die instead of adding +1 to damage

While the end result averages out to the same thing for 1[w] powers, it becomes too good when you're using powers that multiply your weapon damage.

Archery ranger style is kinda weak
rule: couple ideas- give him another archery feat or maybe alertness; or let archery rangers get +2 with prime shot instead of +1

Greatswords suck (and 2h weapons are weak)!
rule: greatswords get d12, and two-handed weapons do strength and a half

Twohanded weapons are balanced by getting more damage with power attack. Greatswords get +3 proficiency instead of greater damage.

Doomsayer's Proclamation is weak
rule: because of the lack of fear powers that require saves, make this power work like the Oracle's terrifying insight, complete with a daze for a miss. I'd bump this up to 16th level and push Doomsayer's Oath down to 11th. This is powerful, but i think makes up for the split primary attributes needed by the Star Lock.

What you folks think? Any other good suggestions?

 

[Zinovia]

Yay, first post!
<snip>
TWF sucks!
rule: twf now increases the primary weapon's damage die instead of adding +1 to damage

Welcome to ENWorld!

If you look at the math, I believe it shows that increasing the die by one increment is the same as increasing the damage by +1.

The average damage on a d8 is (1+8)/2 = 4.5
The average damage on a d8+1 is (2+9)/2 = 5.5
The average damage on a d10 is (1+10)/2 = 5.5

This relationship holds true when you bump it from a d10 to a d12 as well. So your suggestion will not actually change the amount of damage dealt, and it's easier to add a plus 1 on the same die. Furthermore by adding plus 1, you have increased the *minimum* damage done to 2, rather than 1 for the larger die switch idea.

Edit - I had not considered the effect of multiplying the weapon value for powers that do that. It does change the math in that situation. I'd try playing with the base rules before house-ruling a lot. There are too many chances for unintended consequences.

 

[DemonLord57]

Yay, first post!

I've been lurking, and have already seen a few folks raise these issues. So i'm asking for a devil's advocate to tell me why these are NOT good house rule fixes to the mentioned issues.

TWF sucks!
rule: twf now increases the primary weapon's damage die instead of adding +1 to damage

Archery ranger style is kinda weak
rule: couple ideas- give him another archery feat or maybe alertness; or let archery rangers get +2 with prime shot instead of +1

Greatswords suck (and 2h weapons are weak)!
rule: greatswords get d12, and two-handed weapons do strength and a half

Doomsayer's Proclamation is weak
rule: because of the lack of fear powers that require saves, make this power work like the Oracle's terrifying insight, complete with a daze for a miss. I'd bump this up to 16th level and push Doomsayer's Oath down to 11th. This is powerful, but i think makes up for the split primary attributes needed by the Star Lock.

What you folks think? Any other good suggestions?

I disagree almost all counts.
1) Rangers are already the biggest damage dealers in 4e. They don't need any more help.

2) Well, I agree here. I think that there should be some reason for archers to pick the archery path, other than the ability to go into the paragon paths that require it. I think something distinctive, that you can't get elsewhere (not a feat), like the Prime Shot example you suggested. I'm not sure I like that particular idea, but something in that vein would be cool.

3) Greatswords have +3 proficiency bonus. This is good. Admittedly, I would never see myself using one, since the bastard sword is a one handed version of it, but still. In any case, the main reason 2 handed weapons have small increases in damage is because the damage you do with a weapon based power is dependent on your weapon's damage, so when you use a power that does 7[W], even one die of change can be quite significant.

4) Doomsayer's Proclamation is overpowered. All you have to do is wield a wand that has a fear effect on it, and suddenly all of your (save ends) powers are affected. Have the wizard do so too, and he will worship you for that feature. (And yes, this has been verified, it is very clear on page 226)

 

[generalhenry]

TWF for rangers is fine.

Archer rangers may not get as cool a bonus as TWF rangers, but they're a strong build anyways, so there's no need to buff them.

Great swords actually don't suck. High accuracy + high damage combined with multi [W] powers gives them a solid niche. They're no longer the best, but they're hardly bad.

And it's very much so NOT a mistake that sword and board > two handers for fighters and paladins.

 

[jeffh]

While the end result averages out to the same thing for 1[w] powers, it becomes too good when you're using powers that multiply your weapon damage.

No. It still averages out the same for 2[w], 3[w], 7[w] or what have you, in the usual case where raising the die type raises the maximum by two while leaving the minimum alone.

My concern actually comes out of that. If there were a problem there, this suggestion wouldn't fix it, precisely because on the average it works out the same as the actual rule.

 

[Tony Vargas]

TWF sucks!
rule: twf now increases the primary weapon's damage die instead of adding +1 to damage

Statistically this is the same average increase in damage, but, it becomes more powerful in combination with powers that mulitple [W], since they don't mulitply bonus damage.

Archery ranger style is kinda weak
rule: couple ideas- give him another archery feat or maybe alertness; or let archery rangers get +2 with prime shot instead of +1

There are certainly more goodies for going TWF, and one of them is unique. An extra to hit bonus wouldn't really help much, and another feat doesn't do much either. A unique ability - something that's not otherwise availabe - would be desireable. It only has to do a little, though. Sorry I can't think of anything.

Greatswords suck (and 2h weapons are weak)!
rule: greatswords get d12, and two-handed weapons do strength and a half

The Greatsword does have an advantage over other twohanders in having a +3 Proficiency bonus, this is kinda a big deal in 4e, where non-situational attack bonuses are hard to come by. Boosting it to a d12 would move it from a dubious weapon to a strong one, which is not too bad. Giving a scaling bonus to two-handed weapons probably isn't a great idea (and STR scales rapidly with levels for most melee types), because the advantage of using a one-handed weapon (shield bonus or TWF/TWD) does not scale (at most, a +1 at paragon for shield specialization) - s definitely do not ressurect the x1.5 STR damage. Power Attack as it is in 4e is quite sufficient to give a boost to twohanders, and Bracers of Mighty Blows (or whatever they're called) help the greatweapon fighter, too.

This is powerful, but i think makes up for the split primary attributes needed by the Star Lock.

Nothing makes up for introducing a split CON/CHA pact, and then only a CHA paragon path - nothing except a CON path or a split path, that is. That's what I'd consider houseruling for the Star Warlock, even if it is a lot of work.

 

[Ktulu]

Yay, first post!
Archery ranger style is kinda weak
rule: couple ideas- give him another archery feat or maybe alertness; or let archery rangers get +2 with prime shot instead of +1

Really? I found it to be a beast. A ranger w/ an 18 dex and lethal hunter will do 1d10+4+1d8 to his quarry, and that's without any special attacks, just a basic ranged shot. He can do this at a huge range, staying away from enemies, doesn't have the old penalties of firing in melee, and with some of his powers, he can hit more than one enemy at a time, for double that damage! I'm confident the archer ranger is highly potent and on the same power level as an optimized warlock or rogue.

Greatswords suck (and 2h weapons are weak)!
rule: greatswords get d12, and two-handed weapons do strength and a half

On their own their not the greatest, but combined with powers for the 2H style and power attack, they become very, very decent.

I wouldn't boost the damage for a greatsword, as it's already in competition with the greataxe, and boosting the damage would mean it does equal damage and you'll hit more often with it. It would make it better than the greataxe by too much.

 

[Stridercal]

Cool, cool

My only question is about the implement keywords you mentioned: why is something that big only mentioned in one sentence in the whole book?

One of the things i've seen in 4e so far is that certain passages should have been written in bold font+ type in order to understate the RAW. A couple other examples of this have already popped up on this forum, can't remember off the top me head, though...

Anyway, thanks for the negative feedback. IMO, the best way to make rules is to let people tear them to shreads. Anything that survives will be better for it!

 

[Ahrimon]

I thought that archer rangers had a couple of really nice advantages over DW rangers.

They have one fewer stat to put they're points in which let's them have a higher primary attribute. DW rangers need str and dex while archery only need dex.

And of course they don't have to get in the creatures face and can do thier job safely behind the defenders.