D&D 5E DEX-based spear wielding Fighter

[Rune]

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] - I'd still just not allow it and call it a day. You're already homebrewing, say it doesn't work when explaining to players the new options and if they don't like it then not to take the option. You can use GWF or Sneak Attack but not both in the same round. Done.

Well, sure. If I were to tweak that fighting style to something that meshes better with existing rules, it would look like this:

"You may treat a spear as a polearm when using the Polearm Master feat. When attacking with a spear one-handed, you may treat it as if it has the finesse property, if you have not used two hands to attack with a spear previously in the same round. When attacking with a spear in two hands, you may add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. In addition, when attacking with a spear in two hands, if you have not attacked with a spear wielded in only one hand previously in the same round, you may treat the spear as if it has the heavy property and a reach of 10 feet."

Were I to make some tweaks that I might actually include in a game, they would look like this:

1. Polearm Master gets the spear added to its list.

(This I would definitely do, anyway. There's no reason for its exclusion, especially if quarterstaff is on it.)

2. Graceful Spear Fighting Style: "When you make an attack with a spear, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls for that attack. When you wield a spear in two hands, your reach extends to 10 feet. While wielding the spear in two hands, your AC is increased by 1."

(The reach extension provides added utility, but, without the final clause, the fighting style is unique in that it doesn't really provide either a damage or defense bonus. In comparison to other styles, it actually feels like a power-down. However, an AC bonus that can't be used with a shield should compensate. No heavy property, though. I see no reason to ever treat a spear as a heavy weapon. Especially not a Dex-based one.)

Or:

3. Graceful Fighting Style: "You may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls with any melee weapon that does not have the heavy property. While wielding such a weapon in two hands, your AC is increased by 1. When attacking with such a weapon wielded in only one hand, you may choose to maximize a single weapon damage die once per attack, chosen after damage is rolled.

(I prefer this broad type of fighting style to the narrow one above. Of course, adding reach to a wide swath of weaponry isn't appropriate (and steps on the toes of one of the battlemaster maneuvers). To that end, adding a significant spike to the average damage--but not the maximum--of one handed attacks should give some teeth to the style in a way that neither obsoletes, nor overpowers, Dueling Style. The rules do (so far) avoid overlapping damage from fighting styles, but I don't see this combination as more powerful than a great weapon warrior with supporting feats. I could be wrong. Looking back, I note that this style also adds something to the dual-wielder. I think I'm still okay with it, though. As for stacking AC with styles--Mariner already does that. Theoretically, you could get up to +3 AC with three fighting styles, but that would take quite an investment!)

 

[jgsugden]

There are more benefits for a fighter that can be dex reliant and ignore strength. Allowing it to also gain the benefits of a high strength without paying for them is questionable. To that end, I'd require them to forgo an advantage, like making the Spear master a fighting style, to keep them in balance.

 

[Rune]

There are more benefits for a fighter that can be dex reliant and ignore strength.

I'm not so sure I agree with this assessment. The advantages that Dex provides are different than those provided by Str, but they are neither more plentiful, nor more powerful (with the possible exception of Sharpshooter + Crossbow Master--and that's because both of those feats really need a tweak, anyway. I would start by ensuring that Sharpshooter can never be used if the ranged attacker is within the melee reach of anyone. Crossbow Expert would still be a useful feat, even if didn't provide the extra attack. Removing the loading property already provides extra attacks with crossbows.Or, the feat would be fine allowing the extra attack, but not the melee-range benefit.).

Consider:

1. Dexterity provides an AC bonus, but a heavily armored character's AC is at least equivalent.

2. Dexterity provides bonuses to Dex saves, which are plentiful and damaging, but Str saves, while rarer, are generally much worse to fail.

3. Dexterity checks (including initiative) have definite battlefield applicability, but Strength checks provide a far superior level of battlefield control. When directly matched, the Dex check can only be used defensively, while the Str check gets to be defensive and offensive.

4. Ranged weapons tend to have better range and deal more damage than thrown damage. This, alone, strikes me as fine, given that a ranged attack from melee is done at disadvantage. The increase in ranged damage is offset by the generally more damaging melee options available to the Str warrior. The Str warrior is simply more likely to want to stay in melee. That is, of course, until Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert enter the equation. They are game-changers that quash the delicate balance between Str and Dex. But that's a (fixable) problem with the feats, themselves, not the stats.

Allowing it to also gain the benefits of a high strength without paying for them is questionable. To that end, I'd require them to forgo an advantage, like making the Spear master a fighting style, to keep them in balance.

You may note that my proposed fighting style (the general one, not the spear-specific one) does not allow for a damage die greater than a d8 one-handed (comparable to a rapier) and does not provide a damage bonus to two-handed weapons beyond the bump to a potential d10 damage die. The AC bonus isn't an add-on; it's there to shore up the two-handed option so that it is comparable. As I see it, this fighting style's damage and defense output are comparable to other styles' (best use is with a versatile weapon to get both in one round; if that's a problem, you can limit the fighting style to one type of benefit per round) without overshadowing them. In non-crit cases, the average damage of one-hand attacks becomes 8 + mods, but that's also the maximum. Dueling Style's average is only 6.5 + mods, but it's maximum is 10 + mods and even its minimum is 3 + mods. Of course, combining the two would mean all non-crits do 10 + mods, but that means acquiring two fighting styles (which is not without its trade-offs) and still won't put out as much damage as Great Weapon Master + Great Weapon Style.

Dual-wielding sees a comparable boost. At low levels, Graceful Fighting is able to put out (per turn, not per attack) 12 + mods (Str or Dex mod once, others up to twice, depending on what they are) vs. Two-Weapon Fighting's average of 7 + mods (all of them twice, except specific one-time uses, like sneak attack, superiority dice, or smites). In most low-level cases (i.e., the relevant attack attribute at +3 or +4), that looks more like 12 + mods vs. an average 10 or 11 + those same mods, a minimum of 5 or 6 + those same mods (if both attacks hit), and a maximum of 15 to 16 + those same mods. Even with both fighting styles + the Dual Wielder feat, damage output would be capped at a consistent (if both attacks hit) 16 + all mods twice (except for specific single-sources). That's a lot, but the difficulty in acquiring all of these things at low levels is high and comes with trade-offs that are especially noticeable at low levels. And I'm mostly talking about low levels, here, because that's when dual weapon fighting is at its strongest (relative to other options). Each time extra attacks or other sources of bonus action attacks enter the equation, it's relative power drops off (although, I do think Graceful Fighting could alleviate that somewhat).

 

[Zaruthustran]

Rune's Graceful Spear style seems like the winner, to me.

Might as well extend it to apply to quarterstaves as well. After all, how do you fabricate a spear? You take a staff, and you add a point.

Compare to a halberd or glaive, where the shape and mass of the metal head transform them into completely different weapons.

 

[Rune]

Rune's Graceful Spear style seems like the winner, to me.

Might as well extend it to apply to quarterstaves as well. After all, how do you fabricate a spear? You take a staff, and you add a point.

Compare to a halberd or glaive, where the shape and mass of the metal head transform them into completely different weapons.

Thinking back on the Graceful Fighting Style (and not the Graceful Spear Fighting Style), I'd probably add the line, "Only simple weapons may take advantage of both the one-handed and two-handed features of this fighting style during a single round." That would cap the base damage at 8 for rounds in which the the AC gets bumped while also making simple versatile weapons (such as the quarterstaff and the spear) tasty options.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

I'd just go the monk route. Wisdom improves perception and resistance to mind-affecting magic, so you probably won't regret having to prioritize it anyway. Choose Way of the Open Hand for some nice maneuvers at 3rd level and multiclass to fighter after 4th. I can't think of a better Oberyn within the core rules. With house rules, though, even a spear-wielding wizard should be possible!

 

[jgsugden]

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION]: Dexterity contributes to more skills, to initiative, to longer ranged attacks, to a more frequent save (and I disagree that failing Dex saves is less important - see Beholders for an example). Being able to focus on Dex *only* means you can ignore strength and be a 2 attribute (dex and con) focused PC. If you are strength primary, it is harder, though not impossible, to ignore dex and if you do, the impact is far greater. If you grant full access to the best bits of a Strength fighter while not having to pay the cost of gaining a high strength, it creates greater advantages for the PC.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Spears should be included in pole arm master if quarterstaves are. Also should be versatile. They're essentially pointy quarterstaves so no biggie. Problem solved with minimal fiddly bits.
The whole wielding 1H or 2H thing, though. To replicate the whirly style of Oberyn Martell involves both hands at some point _in every round_. Whether the actual damage dealing blow comes from a one handed movement or a two, it landed because _during those six seconds_ both hands were used to control the weapon.

 

[LapBandit]

Spears and quarterstaves are about 6 feet long max, they can benefit from a Polearm Master fighting style and be versatile wielded with two hands, but how would you get reach?

 

[Rune]

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION]: Dexterity contributes to more skills, to initiative, to longer ranged attacks, to a more frequent save (and I disagree that failing Dex saves is less important - see Beholders for an example). Being able to focus on Dex *only* means you can ignore strength and be a 2 attribute (dex and con) focused PC. If you are strength primary, it is harder, though not impossible, to ignore dex and if you do, the impact is far greater. If you grant full access to the best bits of a Strength fighter while not having to pay the cost of gaining a high strength, it creates greater advantages for the PC.

Yup. I can totally see where you're coming from. I just happen to disagree, for the reasons previously cited.

If you care to see a version of Graceful Fighting Style that doesn't allow Dex-for-Str swapping, I've worked up (and renamed) a version in this thread. Also included is an extensive collection of notes about my design decisions.

Spears and quarterstaves are about 6 feet long max, they can benefit from a Polearm Master fighting style and be versatile wielded with two hands, but how the heck would you get Reach with a 5-6 foot pole when explicitly reach weapons are bare minimum 8'.

With a lunge, probably. Characters are assumed to be moving around within their controlled areas. Thus, an attack outside of that area can be assumed to come from the edge of that area, at the very least. However, we know that the attack, itself, necessarily intrudes upon the defender's controlled area. It is but a small leap to infer that, during the course of making a melee attack, the attacker might extend more than just weapon into the opponent's controlled area--even, perhaps, going as far as to quickly dart in and out again. The same maneuver works with reach--it only means that that protrusion of attacker is into the space between attacker and defender, rather than into the defender's controlled area, itself.