dexterity => Agility + Coordination? Comments?

[takyris]

Another way to think of it would be to go with feats:

Babe Ruth has Weapon Focus:Bat (and a high strength score, because he can lug his big fat butt around those bases AND swing a bat really hard and accurately -- Strength in D&D reflects brute strength AND coordination with respect to attacks, which is why a halfling with a strength of 16 is possible at first level, and he'll punch as well as a human with strength 16, even if the human can carry twice as much on his back).

Jackie Chan has Dodge, Expertise, and ranks in Tumble.

Yes, saying that the ability you use to do a cartwheel is the same ability you use to pick a lock or perform needlepoint is a bit simplistic. For that matter, connecting memory and logic in Intelligence or divine understanding with keen senses in Wisdom is equally simplistic.

D&D seems to be in the middle of the spectrum. On the other ends, you get GURPS, which has fewer abilities, and Vampire, which has more abilities. As a middle ground, D&D ain't perfect, but nothing is. It lets people use feats and skills to customize their character. Only in the early levels are the high-dex fighter(archer) and the high-dex rogue(acrobat) going to be comparable in the hiding and shooting competitions. The archer will use feats to quickly outstrip the rogue on the shooting range, while the rogue will use skills to be a skulking king relative to the archer.

-Tacky

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

Since you brought it up...

This crossed my mind the other day when glancing at the sample character sheet for the LotR RPG.

Dexterity, or whatever it's called in a given system, tends to be so important that I think it would probably be a good idea to dilute it a bit by splitting it up somehow.

Anyway, the LotR thing...

They use 'nimbleness' or something similar for archery (as well as melee and a host of other skills).

It got me to thinking that archery seems to have a lot more to do with Perception (i.e. Wisdom) than physical agility.

Perhaps, as Vaxalon(?) suggested, for the time being you could use the WIS Mod for Bow and Crossbow fire (and possibly Sling?), while continuing to use the DEX Mod for thrown weapons. This doesn't require the introduction of another ability score, yet still spreads out the benefits a bit.

I think it also makes sense for a lot of the more 'woodsy' or down to earth yeoman types, for which a higher than average WIS would seem appropriate.

There are a lot of ways to look at it--especially when it comes to abilities affecting actions-- you've just got to find one that you're comfortable with.

 

[Phowett]

I know where your getting at. I, for example, split wisdom in two (Wisdom and Perception) as a house rule, but I've been thinking about making a whole new type of system though for my campaign setting. Possibly a Fallout/D&D mixed system.

 

[hong]

Mang, I hate to think what you guys would make of Tri-Stat's Body/Mind/Soul.

 

[Vaxalon]

Mang, I hate to think what you guys would make of Tri-Stat's Body/Mind/Soul.

Because of the HUGE amount of modifiers that can be applied to it, I like it a lot.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

First, it wasn't so much a problem with 'cookie-cutter' rogues; I guess what I'm trying to say about rogues in general is that they only have one stat that they really have to worry about generally; even fighters have STR and CON; wizards have INT and DEX, etc.... Virtually all other classes need worry about more than one stat (more than does the rogue).

So rogues have more leeway than any other class in terms of putting points wherever they want, whether it be in INT, STR, CHA, whatever. This (proposed) rule would change that, probably.

And I truly think that neither Agility nor (the new version of) Dexterity would be a dump stat.

I mean, as I recall, the Everquest system uses abilities exactly like D&D's, with the exception that Dexterity is broken into Agility and Dexterity; no one complains about that. And in D&D, bow-combat (and all ranged combat) is a lot more useful than in Everquest (because all bows are used for in EQ is _one_ shot, then the monsters run at you, so they are used almost like a 'lure').

For the system that uses mind/body/spirit stats, I doubt I would have any problem with that, because it doesn't purport to be anything but simple. D&D at least (to the uninitiated, plus some) does appear to be trying to simulate *some_degree* of realism; that is, it's not an abstract game.

On the idea of dissecting each attribute: as far as INT goes, I think everyone I've ever met with a great memory also has very good processing power, and certainly close enough insofar as relates to the mechanics of D&D. CHA: well, I don't know too many beautiful people who don't have a good deal of charisma, personally. CON: show me someone who gets winded running up a flight of stairs, and I'll show you someone who probably isn't that 'healthy.' WIS: intuition is different from perception, perhaps, but perception is arbitrary anyway; if you think these should be separate, I could see making the Spot skill (for examaple) not modified by any attribute at all.

STR is a little harder to justify, since it modifies attack rolls and damage. I wouldn't have a problem dividing this up somehow either.

 

[Vaxalon]

First, it wasn't so much a problem with 'cookie-cutter' rogues; I guess what I'm trying to say about rogues in general is that they only have one stat that they really have to worry about generally; even fighters have STR and CON; wizards have INT and DEX, etc.... Virtually all other classes need worry about more than one stat (more than does the rogue).

So rogues have more leeway than any other class in terms of putting points wherever they want, whether it be in INT, STR, CHA, whatever. This (proposed) rule would change that, probably.

Now you seem to be saying that you want to see LESS variability in the kinds of rogues you see, by making them more stat-dependent.

And I truly think that neither Agility nor (the new version of) Dexterity would be a dump stat.

So if everyone would want a good score in both, or neither, why not just leave them as is?

I mean, as I recall, the Everquest system uses abilities exactly like D&D's, with the exception that Dexterity is broken into Agility and Dexterity;.....

So do many other games. Does that make them better?

For the system that uses mind/body/spirit stats, I doubt I would have any problem with that, because it doesn't purport to be anything but simple. D&D at least (to the uninitiated, plus some) does appear to be trying to simulate *some_degree* of realism; that is, it's not an abstract game..

GURPS is a very realistic system; even moreso than DnD. It has four stats.

On the idea of dissecting each attribute: as far as INT goes, I think everyone I've ever met with a great memory also has very good processing power, and certainly close enough insofar as relates to the mechanics of D&D.

That hasn't been my experience. How about the "Absent minded professor" type?

CHA: well, I don't know too many beautiful people who don't have a good deal of charisma, personally.

You haven't? I have. Plenty of shallow, inconfident people who look pretty but don't really have any force of personality.

CON: show me someone who gets winded running up a flight of stairs, and I'll show you someone who probably isn't that 'healthy.'

Not true. Plenty of people who have no endurance have plenty of disease resistance.

WIS: intuition is different from perception, perhaps, but perception is arbitrary anyway; if you think these should be separate, I could see making the Spot skill (for examaple) not modified by any attribute at all.

I don't think they should be separate, but by the logic you are using I don't understand why YOU don't think they should be separate.

 

[hong]

GURPS is a very realistic system; even moreso than DnD. It has four stats.

Mind you, I remember a thread on GURPSnet that was discussing how many stats the game should have, and quite a few people were suggesting six. The Charisma and Strong Will advantages are basically quasi-stats, and it isn't hard to visualise a version of GURPS where they become actual stats (in fact the option of basing Will off 10 instead of IQ is published in Compendium I).

That would lead us back to
ST
DX
IQ
HT
Cha
Wis

The more things change, the more they stay the same....

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Now you seem to be saying that you want to see LESS variability in the kinds of rogues you see, by making them more stat-dependent.

I'm sorry; I guess I meant to be saying that all along. Not that variability is bad, just that the rogue has more options when it comes to assigning stats, since DEX is his only really necessary one.

So if everyone would want a good score in both, or neither, why not just leave them as is?

Just because they are not 'dump stats' doesn't mean everyone is going to want to put a good score in them. It involves choice, just as it does now with the supposedly 'dump-stat' CHA.

So do many other games. Does that make them better?

Regarding that aspect, yes.

That hasn't been my experience. How about the "Absent minded professor" type?

IMHO, that is more of a character concept than something that needs be represented with 'stats.'

You haven't? I have. Plenty of shallow, inconfident people who look pretty but don't really have any force of personality.

Again, in game terms, I think we are talking about character concept here, rather than something that requires a rules change. If you want to play a beautiful airhead, so to speak, then simply give the character a lower charisma. I'm trying to say that such a person would either have a low, or high charisma, and one score will adequately depict such a character concept.

Not true. Plenty of people who have no endurance have plenty of disease resistance.

I would tend to disagree with you here. Studies have shown that regular excercise promotes long life and healthy living. If you can't climb a flight of stairs, chances are you can't fight for a long time without being tired out (and worn out).

I don't think they should be separate, but by the logic you are using I don't understand why YOU don't think they should be separate.

I don't think they should be separate; in fact, I think perception and intuition probably are related, depending on how you define perception, I guess. Hearing and Sight, ok, fine, those don't have much to do with the mind, but rather are physical aspects of the body. However, perception can be comprised of more than these. In any case, I don't think a person should be forced into a character concept like poor sight because of Wisdom, or any stat.

It is a game, but I'm trying to explain that I think the physical (and therefore very imprtant in a game like D&D which revolves around combat more or less) characteristics that involve (a)throwing a rock at an enemy and (b) doing a backflip off the prow of a ship are different enough to warrant separate attributes. And since they both affect the most imprtant aspect of the game (and that which the rules revolve around), i.e., combat, I think it's worth taking into consideration.

 

[Vaxalon]

I'm sorry; I guess I meant to be saying that all along. Not that variability is bad, just that the rogue has more options when it comes to assigning stats, since DEX is his only really necessary one.

I can't say I agree with you; I like the idea that you can easily have a strong rogue, a smart rogue, or a charismatic rogue. I think having more choices here is a good thing.

Just because they are not 'dump stats' doesn't mean everyone is going to want to put a good score in them. It involves choice, just as it does now with the supposedly 'dump-stat' CHA..

The more attributes you make, the easier you make it to minimax the system to make a character who is very very good at a small number of things, and poor at the rest.

IMHO, that is more of a character concept than something that needs be represented with 'stats.'
....
Again, in game terms, I think we are talking about character concept here, rather than something that requires a rules change. If you want to play a beautiful airhead, so to speak, then simply give the character a lower charisma. I'm trying to say that such a person would either have a low, or high charisma, and one score will adequately depict such a character concept.
.

Is "A strong fighter" just a character concept? Surely, the attributes are the way you make the character concept happen.

And clearly the system doesn't model the beautiful airhead well.

I would tend to disagree with you here. Studies have shown that regular excercise promotes long life and healthy living. If you can't climb a flight of stairs, chances are you can't fight for a long time without being tired out (and worn out).

Surely, if you don't have good endurance, you don't have good endurance; that's tautologous. What I'm arguing is that you could be easily tired out due to lack of exercise, but have a good immune system due to healthy diet and other factors.

....I think perception and intuition probably are related, depending on how you define perception, I guess. Hearing and Sight, ok, fine, those don't have much to do with the mind, but rather are physical aspects of the body. However, perception can be comprised of more than these. In any case, I don't think a person should be forced into a character concept like poor sight because of Wisdom, or any stat. ).

And even though the system DOES do this, you don't want to split wisdom. This is inconsistent, the way I see it.

It is a game, but I'm trying to explain that I think the physical (and therefore very imprtant in a game like D&D which revolves around combat more or less) characteristics that involve (a)throwing a rock at an enemy and (b) doing a backflip off the prow of a ship are different enough to warrant separate attributes.).

And I'm saying that the same thing applies to CON, INT, WIS, and CHA to the same degree as DEX.

And since they both affect the most imprtant aspect of the game (and that which the rules revolve around), i.e., combat, I think it's worth taking into consideration.

Perhaps this speaks more to the kind of game you're in than it does to the need to split dexterity. If there are never any social interactions, or at least never any rolls for them, then perhaps you're right... and not only that, you should probably ditch the charisma attribute as well.